Reacting to wide 3bettors and building a strategy
Posted by baronmccool
Posted by
baronmccool
posted in
Low Stakes
Reacting to wide 3bettors and building a strategy
While I've been playing, I've noticed a lot of players with 12%+ 3bet, some as high as 20% and I'm definitely folding too much to them. So I'm trying to work out how to build my own ranges with which to call and play back, but I'm not 100% sure how. It makes sense to look at the range vs range strength and find one where I'm ahead but re-stealing enough to make it unprofitable, or to be ahead when calling.
Obviously in this situation we're light 4betting a bit because we expect them to fold enough with their wide 3betting range and playability post-flop would be a factor if called, what other factors do you consider/what is your study approach?
Loading 17 Comments...
Excellent thanks, that's just what I was looking for.
WP round2. Can't stress enough that you can't try to counter his strategy by calling more 3b.
You can call slightly wider, but the best adjustment is to go to war more prepared with a stronger range. From that stronger range, you can call lighter but that doesn't mean start calling with 85s, but more so if you generally defend KJo as your bottom line, you can call with KTo perhaps vs a wide enough range, for example.
Vs some people, you can call with any 2 and 2.2-2.4x their flop c-bet on any board as well. But that gets more dangerous and you need to know who you're doing it against.
This is the most clear and stark leak in my game right now. My games also often feature 12-25% 3b with just relentless aggression until you show legitimate push back with an uncapped range. They isnta shut down then. It's led to me overfolding to 3b's but this is also a population tendency. I know I should be calling roughly what - 67% of 3b's? But that's a very wide range of combos in our pf 3b calling range. This leads to absolutely forcing me to play hands that I'm not comfortable with in large pots, OOP at times. It's definitely where I'm losing the most money and it's a direct result of overfolding.
edit: As I'm reading up, I see that you're specifically saying to 4b with a wider range as opposed to calling with a wider range, but they'll call the 4b with a high frequency, too and it basically leads to the same situation but with an even bigger pot. This is why I'm saying lately that I don't see much of a way around this other than to accept a high degree of variance or simply be shut down to a large extent at tables like these.
You don't need to defend anywhere near to 67% to 3bets. If you fold 67% to a 3bet and there is no other player left to help defending then your opponent could autoprofit by 3betting.
yes, but I've also seen 67-72% call pf 3b as a suggested defending frequency. What percentage do you consider sound?
SetMineUrAss, given usual preflop sizes you should defend (call or 4bet) 30% of your opening range to deny auto-profit to aggressive 3bettors.
But it's suggested to defend 45% of your opening range. Almost everyone agree to this number and I don't know why, maybe someone can explain?
So, as I've been mentioning lately, a higher betting frequency w/ smaller sizing, higher agg, and higher variance game is the path to fighting back in these environments. As I was reading here last night about not calling more as a means of combating freq pf 3b's, I have indeed started to see where the value comes from at tables like these. Patience is key, and you're going to have to do a lot of disciplined folding at times, but by 4betting and even 5b jamming with a wider range, you force these players entirely out of their comfort zone of playing big pots post flop and with accurate range assessment your light GII should typically be slightly ahead of their shove calling range. We are going to have to 4b fold and 5b GII where we're not that comfortable doing so, but the alternative is simply getting bullied off every other hand you OR.
I just picked up an essential again. I actually do remember quite a bit from the Elite content I had access to there for a bit so I'm studying these new essentials intently, using GTO+/Flopzilla, and pouring over hand histories.
The added value of 4b/5b'ing wider is also that you simply get paid more on your big hands, as well. It sets up spots like this, where AKo becomes an insta stackoff for some villains:
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
Hero (BB): $5.07
UTG: $9.94 (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
MP: $2.71 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
CO: $7.54 (VPIP: 53.33, PFR: 26.67, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 16)
BTN: $6.14 (VPIP: 21.90, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 3.92, Hands: 106)
SB: $5.06 (VPIP: 5.88, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Kd Kc
fold, fold, CO raises to $0.14, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.48, CO raises to $1.21, Hero raises to $5.07 and is all-in, CO calls $3.86
Flop : ($10.16, 2 players) 5c 5h 7d
Turn : ($10.16, 2 players) 4d
River : ($10.16, 2 players) 5s
Hero shows Kd Kc (Full House, Fives full of Kings)
(Pre 70%, Flop 87%, Turn 93%)
CO shows Ks Ac (Three of a Kind, Fives)
(Pre 30%, Flop 13%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins $9.66
Rake paid $0.34
$0.16 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
bnoise Right - So a 70% call pf 3b is just about about right. Of course, the question would be what of that 30% of the original OR are we 4b'ing with and what % are we calling 3b's with, and how are those combos distributed.
I think you mean fold pf 3b.
This I can answer. In that 30% (or, better, 45%) of hands we defend we 4bet the value hands, meaning hands we are happy to call a 5bet shove (usually AK, QQ+ and sometimes JJ). Then we add a bluff combo for every value hand, meaning we 4bet and we fold to a shove. You choose the bluff 4bet combos out of the be the worse combos of your 30% (45%) defend range, also the ones with the nicest blockers. I think that's more art than science. The rest of the range we flat.
Why 50/50 value/bluff? This has to do with typical 4bet sizes. So, if we open BTN 3bb, SB 3bet 12bb and we 4bet 30bb, it's not 50/50 anymore, it's more 60% value and 40% bluffs. The bigger our 4bet, the bigger part or our 4bet range we have to defend (meaning calling a shove, with 100bb deep). If you want math details there are articles on donkr.com (optimal 3bet 4bet strategies).
bnoise When you call a 3-bet and villain is bluffing, he gets to realize equity because he has cards. So that's why you should defend more than 33%. The more calling you do as a defense, the wider you'd need to defend in theory. If you play an efficient 4b or call 3bet defense strategy, you'll be folding to a 3-bet 50-60% of the time. Which is a good range. By tightening up pre you also lower your fold to 3-bet.
What kind of a bluff:value ratio are we looking at by villain (both IP and OOP) in pf 3b pots after the flop comes down?
SetMineUrAss bluff/value ratio of 3bettor depends on the 3bettor, but in theory the biggest his 3bet size is, the biggest part of it he should defend against a 4bet. If you open 3bb and they 3bet 9bb, I think they should have 60% bluffs and 40% value/continuation. If there's lot of dead money in pot, this changes.
There are many different spots, many opponents, and someone will adjust their 3bet range based on your way of playing.
For example:
If you fold too much to 3b, I think a polarized range would be good (I 3bet 76s because you fold, if you call your hand is better than mine but I have playabilty post-flop).
If you flat too much to 3b, a merged range would be good (I 3bet AJs because you can call with worse).
If you 4bet too much to 3b, I'm flatting AQ but 3betting A5s and planning to bluff shove to a 4bet (because you fold you tons of 4bet bluff).
If you call 5bet lighter, than I should shove lighter, so I should have more shoving hands in my 3bet range, and so on...
Typically when people 3bet in position they have a polarized range, but not always (I'm speaking NL2 - NL25, my experience). LAGs likes to 3bet a merged range in my games.
When people 3bets OOP (mostly blinds vs CO and BTN) they usually have a merged range because they have to play more postflop (BTN likes to call 3b in position) and with position disadvantage. That's also why OOP people 3bets with larger size than IP.
bnoise Thank you so much for taking the time to elaborate on this to that extent. I read your post yesterday, put in a quick session, and then was away from the tables last night.
I deposited on Global and was playing $4NL but I'm going to either run that up and move up or simply just deposit some more to play $20NL. I've never played live and I've only played on US facing sites from 2013-2018. Global is so much softer than anything I've experienced before lol. I also bought BTC, and am waiting to deposit on BetOnline again (as I have been waiting) when they issue their next reload bonus. This will all combine to give me the best table selection options I've had in front of me yet.
This discussion, and a few others, have sharpened me up and begun plugging my main leak which was definitely 3b/4b pre and post. 66-99, 9Ts, JTs, A5s, etc - calling more with these and also opening from EP with hands that have more pf playability so that I can call a 3b and then proceed with an appropriate line pf. I can also clearly open up all of my ranges on the softer networks and this will also help improve my play and build confidence.
it depends alot on the limit your playing as well and the tendencies at that limit. if you're asking this question im assuming your below 50nl. I think you can still play pretty tight against 3b's in general, but choose to 4bet some hands with good blockers and postflop playability when called. There is a formula out there that helps you determine the percentages you need to defend based on your opening range, but i havent used it in over a year.
basically IP bttn vs sb, defending things like JTs+ ,QTs+, KTs+, ATs+, AQo, and most pairs dependent on price. 4betting things like K9s, A2s, and AJo/KQo, if they are not good enough to call preflop(dependent on villains strat. ) KQo, and AJo have good blockers. usually I think they are a call, but against tighter ranges i might want to 4b these for blocking ability.
OOP, think its good to not call very much and 4bet fold most of the time, even a hand like AQo OOP doesnt play very well, especially at lower stakes
I typically prefer suited Ax blockers for 4betting because of the nut blocker and the ability to flop/turn equity. wouldnt really use a hand like ATo as a 4bet very often
Be the first to add a comment