Range building question
Posted by Mike76
Posted by
Mike76
posted in
Mid Stakes
Range building question
Scenario: BTN opens 2.5x with ~50% and SB 3bets ~15% to 9bb, 100bb effective. Flop Ah8c2d, SB cbets slightly more than 1/2 pot. Turn Qs, SB bets again slightly more than 1/2 pot again. I assumed that as BTN I shouldn't have a raising range on the flop. Should I now have a raising range on that turn? I have difficulty to understand which strategy is better. We assume SB is a good player and pretty balanced in this spot.
Thanks
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If you're opening 50% then you're flatting a relatively large range, right? Like, AA, TT-55, all of your suited broadways (less AKs), KQo, and a bunch of suited connectors. (According to Janda, you'll have to defend 14.5% of all hands in this spot)
So raising the flop seems wrong because the SB has way more Ax in his range and you'd be defining your hand. But raising the turn seems correct because he has air at least as much as you do (if not more) and you find value from all his straight and flush draws. Plus if you're bluffing some percentage then you're finding folds from all his Qx and pairs that beat you (if not immediately then a bet on the river does the job). Add in all the other value situations and a raise seems balanced.
I'd be curious what Sauce thinks though.
I don't think we should justify whether or not we should raise the turn based on how many combos of air he has compared to us. Let's take nuts/air scenario, we should never raise with a bluff catching range even if we have 0 air and the opponent has plenty.
Regarding Qx and pairs, I think most opponents will check at a high frequency with those on the turn, so we should not take that as an argument for raising.
defending only 14.5% would mean we are way over folding to 3bs though right? Surely if we only fold something 55% then we are defending about a 22% range?
I wouldn't reallly say SB has WAY more Ax combos. Surely the only combos the 3b range has that the BU range doesnt have would be just AK and AA, and BU will have those combos too at some frequency?
What do you want to raise for value OTT and which hands are preferably high of EQ to justify semibluffraising? I see none on this board texture.
The most obvious hand that would benefit from raising turn would be JTs. I would call 3 combos on the flop (BDFD). Not everyone would call flop with those, but other than that I agree that we don't have many hands that want to raise. My strategy in game is to call the turn 100% there, but I was wondering if letting villain barrel and always see that river card was a good strategy (same thing on the flop). Like I said in my first post, I don't know how to approach these situations.
I dont call that loosely in 3bet pots.
If you're opening 50% then you have to defend that loosely.
Which also requires that you defend like 60-70% of flops. If he's betting 1/2 pot though, doesn't that imply he has more value oriented hands? The bet sizing doesn't imply a nuts vs. air scenario. If we raise the turn though, isn't that what we are creating?
Don't we like that board more if we're in the SB? We get to 3 barrel with a variety of bet sizes. We can check-raise and take the pot down OTF fairly frequently. We can check-call the flop, which means the turn will go check-check very often, and we win the pot with a river bet.
If we don't think we have the skill edge, why are we opening 50%?
We have to be raising that turn with AA, 88, AQo, AQs, AKo, A8s, maybe even Q8s and 22 if we open that wide. Then for balance we need to raise w/ some percentage of J10s and K10s or KJs.
All of this seems theoretically sound, but I'm bum a hunter looking for more pragmatic reasons to raise the pot.
Preflop you and BB defend together appropriate amount. So it is not so easy for SB to exploit you, so you can fold slghtly more. Also do not forget about the rake - all those defendng math does not take rake into account.
Adding some 4bet bluff is also good way to punish loose 3bettor OOP.
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Postflop A high bord fawors 3bettor;middle card wet boards
fawor caller in position, so you ca also fold more on this flop.
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