Raised first in AND called preflop 3b filter in 25NL full ring
Posted by Puma1
Posted by
Puma1
posted in
Low Stakes
Raised first in AND called preflop 3b filter in 25NL full ring
Alright so I have filtered across 157.340 hands I played of 25NL Full ring where I am was around breakeven for first 95.000 hands and was collecting rakeback and bonuses but things have changed recently probably to a degree due to variance and I assume bad plays/ regulars adapting or whatever am currently at -2bb/100 across the whole sample. I wasn't doing much studying during this time as I still collected some money from rakeback/bonuses and had some other obligations but thats about to change.
I am also running 229$ under EV across the whole sample
I am sorry the links aren't working just copy-paste them in your browser
Graph of 157.340 hands: https://paste.pics/916aec414e6b3ae814c69ef137f33971
I have used a filter of Raised first In AND CALLED preflop 3b and realized cca half of my whole loss across 157.340 hands come from this situations.
Picture of filtered results for "Raised first in AND called preflop 3b":
https://paste.pics/bd32ee3954903377d90f4406393c8353
Now I realize that this kind of loss when calling in 3b pots is a sign of a pretty big leak but for start could anyone tell me what is "normal" when running this filter should we be winning or just around breakeven in this spots?
Further could someone please advise me how to approach this, maybe which additional filters to run and what stats to focus on to fix this?
Loading 16 Comments...
Short version you are supposed to 'loose' on calling 3 bets, still it can be better to call then fold as then you 'loose' your original bet !
So first thing is to make sure that you compensate for your initial bet (and rake attributed)!
So on average your loss is about 3 BB per hand which is just the prob similar to your original bet and rake attributed combined. So one could say your doing ok in calling 3 bet spots. But then maybe you call also with big hands (AA,KK etc) now and it could be that calling with those hands makes that your average is just good enough but that you are still loosing on certain marginal hands. So would look at what hands you call with and if they are winning or loosing hands.
Your sample size is not big enough to base definitive conclusions on.
I see, so when I calculate 671( number of hands in my RFI AND call 3b sample) x0.75$( my standard open) I get the result of 503.25$. So that would be my loss -503.25$ if I folded every time I get 3b when RFI.
I lost 453$ on my sample so thats only cca 10% better than if I folded every hand. That looks pretty bad to me, does anyone have a sample of a winning player on lets say 25NL-100NL in those spots for comparison?
Was curious myself (making 7 BB/100) how my calling on 3 bets performs :)
As you can see the figures are all over the place but my nr of hands played is even smaller then yours.
wwsf 37 and avg all in equity 62% -even for 9max tables those stats indicate you are too passive and nitty. I think its bigger issue with your game than trying to find leak in cold calling 3bets on very small sample. Obviously losing over 300bb/100 in that situation is very bad, but it can be also variance(only 671 samples). What is your fold to 3bet? 4bet? What is your fold to cbet in 3bet pots?
Oh did not see that other graph indeed WWSF is no where near you want it to be (>50%) or you must have some strategy that makes this low and still pays off.
Agree with Jbarez
VIP/PFR/CC/RFI and all flop cbet stats (both betting yourself as your defense to it) are way more important to look at then your 3 bet stats.
tnx to everyone,for your answers Ill try to provide more detailed post about my stats but in order to do that , I have an additional question:
I know how to filter for "Raised frist in AND folded to 3b" but the result I get are like this: https://paste.pics/2de5284efe1e483421b437b84a42d6b1
How do I get results in percentages?
You can right click the report and then choose configure report you can then choose any statistic you want and add it to your report.
Alright here are the requested stats, I understand already overall I am too nitty and I am working on that among other things I started playing 6 max where I am "forced " to play more hands. From my understanding I should be opening up my ranges alot more from HIJ,CO,BTN? Please, as you notice leaks in my stats etc..please be as specific as possible on how to fix the leaks that you see or at least point me to specific study materials that adress them, I thank you all for your time in advance:
*Regarding WWSF stat as you can see it is much higher than 37 overall except the SB where its 28, so I think this is dragging the average down, is it common that WWSF is lowest in SB and what are the things to focus on to improve that? *
Positonal stats first part: https://paste.pics/a1ff944f99d130777fe6e5569c568547
Positional stats second parts: https://paste.pics/8f9da5a9e5e1e88ff3cc1256e4f5b342
If you need any other stat to help me analyize my game please let me know!
WonSD - 65% - waaaay too high - it says that you are not bluffcatching and miss many valuebet opportunities. There are probably many spots when you check river and then see worse hand that certainly could pay your bet.
Fold to cbet flop 61% - as above, that value is just too high - everyone can just throw cbet into you and its guaranteed printing money. You probably should fix a bit your ranges and not be afraid to float/raise with backdoors.
RFI - your opening range from CO-SB is too tight, fullring specific is that players are often not accustomed to playing wide ranges so you can open 30% from CO and 50%+ from both BTN and SB
Cbets - flop is fine, but overall you are not betting as much as you should. I think you can both bet more on flop(~60%) and turn(~50%)
WWSF - yes, SB is big issue there but you are not fightning for pots enough on other positions either. Obviously on full ring 50% is almost impossible but 45% should be reachable. Its hard to give you any general advice there ,but I wouldnt worry about that stat too much anyway - it will rise up when you fix other issues with your game.
Cold call - you are calling way too wide from UTG2-CO. You should prefer there to 3bet , not coldcall, instead you are coldcalling twice as much. Why? Cause it makes your game more simple and its better to play for example AQo against one player in 3bet pot than in multiway without both position and initiative . Not saying that you are vulnerable against squeezes with heavily capped range.
3bet vs steal - 6% - players on fullring are probably tighter when it comes to stealing, still you should aim at over 10% resteal.
62% all-in equity - you are probably stacking off too tight and are probably a little afraid of going all in with AK or strong draw.
Cold call - you are calling way too wide from UTG2-CO. You should prefer there to 3bet , not coldcall, instead you are coldcalling twice as much. Why? Cause it makes your game more simple and its better to play for example AQo against one player in 3bet pot than in multiway without both position and initiative . Not saying that you are vulnerable against squeezes with heavily capped range.
Regarding this comment, I assume you mean MP, MP+1, MP+2, CO?
But especially in positions on MP-MP+2 I will be often facing a EP open which is a tight range of 10-12% of the vast majority of players. 3b AQo vs those positions will almost never result in going heads up as a favorite and will also often result in being forced to fold vs a 4b, or am I missing something here?
I played around with Pokersnowie Preflop advisor and it does seam to work pretty well at 6 max games, do you think I can take its ranges and apply them for MP+1, MP+2,CO,BTN, SB, BB on full ring games and treat these positions same as 6 max if either if is folded to me on MP+1 or action begins at MP+1?
Treat is as semi-bluff. You have decent equity against calling range, have both position and initiative, also you are protected against squeezes/overcalls which makes your hand extremely hard to play well. Obviously you have easy fold vs 4bet , but thats completely not a problem, you were just lucky to not give away more than 8-9bb in case you hit TPTK postflop. Notice how much it simplify your game and allow you to avoid tough spots.
Yeah, snowie ranges are not bad. Notice that Snowie is advocating ~5,50% 3bet range and only ~1,20% cold call range when you are on MP and facing OR from EP.
Yes, its good for start, you can even widen up if you see many players playing outdated strategy like you now(~14/10).
Alright thanks, btw should I also use snowie open sizes from last 6/9 positions on full ring and openraise 3bb only on first UTG-UTG+2? Because I noticed it advocates opening for 2.25bb everywhere, except SB where it advocated for 3.5bb raise? Also I noticed it advocates for pretty big 3b sizes, how big should I go I normally just 3b 3x the initial raise size if there aren't any limpers?
RFI overall of 15% is way to tight would especially open more from later positions (MP+2 ~ 17%, CO ~ 25%, BTN ~50% or more, SB ~50%). Your win rate should be way higher from CO/BTN as these are ideal blind stealing positions.
You Cold Call to much and overall your 3 bet percentage is low are you only value 3 betting? Especially cold calling from the SB is not ok would 3 bet more from the SB as your OOP (I myself almost never cold call from the SB only if the BB is passive I might cold call from the SB). From the BB cold calling is ok as your closing the action and have a huge discount on just calling. Against CO-SB raises you can call very wide on the BB. Would check how much others fold against 3 bets and see if you can exploit them as most of the time people tend to fold to much against 3 bets and try to 3 bet wider. 3 betting instead of cold calling also serves the purpose of avoiding rake.
Your Fold to Flop cBet is way to high should be in general lower then 40%. Folding more then 40% means that villains can very profitable cbet into you with any 2 cards (exception here is the BB as due to the cheap preflop price you can fold more on the flop and also because your OOP). Folding to much can mean that you cold call to much with weak hands or that your not fighting enough for the pot or ... difficult to say. WTSD (24% is low) and WSD (65% is high) also indicate that you fold to much.
You fold a lot against 3 bets on late position although the % are skewed should use called 3 bet after raise (meaning calling a 3 bet when you yourself raised). On later positions 3 bet calling after raise + 4 betting should be ~40% as otherwise people can 3 bet you profitable with any 2. Of course against people that don't 3 bet wide enough folding a lot is ok.
When being the preflop aggressor I notice that your aggression level is reasonable.
Alright thanks alot, I filtered for "Called 3b after raising"(2bet PF& Call 3b tab) and for "Called Flop Cbet in 3b pot" please let me know what you think, from what you told me I believe I am also overfolding in at least "Called Flop Cbet in 3b pot"(how much should I aim for here considering some of the time 3b are quite tight+ they always have range advantage? ) not sure about the "Called 3b after raising" category?
Stats:
https://paste.pics/b0833d3cc2abf25fe8868df5e760a235
For being 3 bet you want to examine the situation that you Open Raise as when you open raise you need to defend against 3 bets enough against aggressive villains. Would aim at about 40% defending against 3 bet (either calling + 4 betting together).
When being cbet in a 3 bet pot you should not fold more then 60% (also depends on the cbet sizing actually the smaller the sizing the more you need to defend) but 60% is a good starting point. This is all assuming that your opponents are not super tight if they are then still you actually defend close to 60% but prob fold more against 3 bets.
Would first focus on opening and 3 betting more from late position yourself.
Be aware that without proper complete analyses of your game it is difficult to give advise. I am not a coach and don't want to be one so for more and better advice you may want to seek advice from a coach. Or read some good poker books or watch some good youtube channels on the subject.
Succes!
Alright thank you for all the advice, much appreciated :)
Be the first to add a comment