Question on CBet bet sizings
Posted by Varrianda
Posted by
Varrianda
posted in
Low Stakes
Question on CBet bet sizings
I'm currently reading grinders manual, and it basically shows a little chart that if a board is dry, I.E Qc 5d 7h we should bet a different sizing no matter our holding than if the flop was say Ad Qd Th. Let's say on both boards we hold AdAc, the first board (Qc 5d 7h) should be bet around 1/2 pot, while the wet board(Ad Qd Th) should be bet at somewhere around 70%-pot. Am I interpreting this right? Let's also say on both boards we have air, would we still bet 1/2 pot on the dry board, and 70-pot on the wet board? My bet sizings have almost always been 1/2 pot no matter the flop, so this is a new concept to me.
Loading 13 Comments...
Not 100% certain on this - maybe some other people can back me up/correct me but my interpretation of it is to do with the frequency we bet on different board textures which relates to how we should size our bets.
For example in the first example it's a very dry board where villain won't have loads of hands they can continue with. This means we are more incentivised to bluff as we expect to get folds more often. This in turn leads us to be smaller with a wider range because we get better value on our bluffs and we can also bet wider for value.
On the second board AdQdTh there are a lot of combos of pairs, draws, combo draws etc. that villain can continue with either with a call or a raise. This means we are less incentivised to bluff as we are not going to take down the pot as often. In this case as we will not be bluffing as much and not value betting as thinly we will be using a larger sizing for both our bluffs and our value hands.
A general rule I believe (though general rules are often dangerous in poker if you can't adapt them sometimes) is the wider your betting range is, the smaller your bet size should be.
An example of this can be found in Julian Kopanskiy's video on 'C-betting as Button PFR vs Big Blind' he talks about betting on dry boards and how villain should react to our strategy - where we have a very dry board (in this case 772r flop) that we should be cbetting 100% of our range for a 1/3 pot size bet.
Hope this helps, if I've not explained anything clearly let me know :)
Yes, Grinder's advice is better than simply betting 1/2 pot all the time.
No, I suggest you reread Grinder's Manual. It doesn't advocate what you seem to think it does. The section you are referencing is about light CBetting not all flop betting. Grinder advocates different betsizings for different flop textures and versus different opponent player types. Versus a fish your AA should always bet big for value, for example. Versus a reg, AA or air (that is chosen to be part of betting range) would bet the same betsize for disguise depending on flop texture.
Secondly, the CBet advice in Grinder's Manual is out of date already in that computer Solvers are changing our collective understanding of simplified CBet sizing. Specifically, theoretically correct CBetsizing may well vary from much smaller to much larger than has been historically accepted as best practice. The best sizing for different player types is also emerging as different to historically accepted practice based on somewhat complex interaction of board texture and player ranges and relative stack sizes and complex interaction of betting plans across the streets. But whether such variations yield practically significant EV differences is still debateable in many situations. It is too early to reach definitive conclusions for many spots.
Thirdly, what Grinder's Manual says about Showdown value is also being reassessed by Solvers. Often Solvers advocate a Bet for a hand that Grinder's Manual says should never Bet because of Showdown Value.
Grinder's Manual is a good summary of collective poker wisdom before the advent of Solvers but it remains to be seen whether that will still be judged good enough by the end of 2016 as Solvers continue to rapidly change our collective poker understanding.
Solvers don't actually work. Toy game you set up in a solver is not the actual game being played. People are fantasizing over these like the new Atkin's diet, when time should really be spent in mental game study and soft skills. >>>>>> GTO hog wash~~
There are ways to to study with solvers that improve decision making in game and it's the best tool we have for ranking/picking highest EV hands.
For example if you play against a player that Cbet turn with too many value hands and fold too much to river probes, you can float wider OTF but not call all hands. The solver can help you identify what hands are highest EV floats and add a few more marginal hands than what it calls with. That was an example of using it to pick highest EV hands and you can also use it to find what turn cards you should barrel aggressively etc.
The solvers are not more powerful than the way you use them.
I don't use Pio for GTO. I use Pio to exploit. I have deliberately taken hands from Grinders Manual to see how to exploit people who are being taught to think the Grinders way. Pio has been extraordinarily helpful at exposing Grinder's inadequate advice.
sorry this might sound dumb but what is the grinder's manual? and where can i find this ?
Looks like it's the newest book for how to beat 5NL to 25NL 6max. I haven't read it and I generally recommend grinding poker Snowie preflop advisor instead of reading these books. They're quite useless for postflop play IMO. I was a winning player at 25NL four years ago tho and are out of touch with beginner material in 2016.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/33/books-publications/review-peter-carroters-clarke-grinders-manual-1602843/
It's too long since I read one of these and it probably explains a lot of fundamental concepts I take for granted and don't have to think about consciously. I'm transitioning from HU to 6max after playing mostly HU the last 14 months and would get very little out of this book, and was better of just grinding poker Snowie preflop advisor when I started studying 6max.
what is this Grinders manual you are all speaking of?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/33/books-publications/review-peter-carroters-clarke-grinders-manual-1602843/
I'm going to make a strong statement:
With the tools we have available today, books are OUT as a source of learning. If you have any, throw them in a pile and burn them. Take it from someone who once had pretty much every poker book in print. :-)
+1
Your C-bet sizing should be in concordance with your perceived range and the range of V. If you got Range Advantage on flop you should certainly apply pressure but the sizing will always be in relation with the part of V range you are targeting. Also there is a lot of other factors to take into consideration. The more V will fold to C-Bet on flop to more you will be inclined to reduce your size since you'll profit margin will instantly increase. In other words, the more he fold the less your bet size. It's more in relation with V frequencies, than the dynamism of the flop. I prefer to say that flops are "Static" or "Dynamic" than Wet or Dry. A Static Flop would be a Flop where the best hand on flop will probably be the best hand at showdown. A dynamic Flop is a Flop where the best hand is not made yet and lot of Turn and River will change this. This is a small distinction but nonetheless an important one.
Be the first to add a comment