Pretty interesting spot wanted to see what other think about the hand

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Pretty interesting spot wanted to see what other think about the hand

BN: $100.91 (Hero)
SB: $108.50
BB: $111.79
UTG: $167.23
HJ: $100
CO: $260.06
Villain is playing about 18/15 Fcb 60 flop x/r 17, do not have a large enough sample for river x/r
from what I've seen so far hes a TAG fish, folding alot in the blinds at 82-100 from bb and sb WWSF 64
3bet 3%
Preflop ($1.50) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt 7 7
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB calls $1
Flop ($4.50) K 7 8 (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.37, BB calls $2.37
standard cbet
Turn ($9.24) Q (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks
Normally I barrel turn to get value from Kx, but for this specific opponent i decided to check back and play my hand passively. Reason being is that his x/r is pretty high and since he did not x/r flop I can pretty much eliminate alot of Axhh and t9s from his range. I decided to give him a chance to bet river so i can raise for value since it seems he is pretty aggressive wwsf is 64 flop raise/x/r stats are both high.
River ($9.24) 6 (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4.50, BB raises to $19
I was expecting a x/f by him, but when he raises what can I get value from by going over the top?
I pretty much eliminated alot of his value range Axhh T9s and AA KK QQ I expect him to 3bet pre. So now that I perceive he has no value range, would it make sense to just call his raise on the river or should i 3bet hoping to get called by Kx?
I know this sounds like a stupid question, but would like to know if people would still raise when knowing that villain is bluffing OTR since there is no play after. If villain is never calling when hes caught bluffing vs the off chance that he does have the nuts once every blue.

19 Comments

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retrej 12 years, 1 month ago
What about min raising the river ? I think he could call with Kx much more often than to a shove.
vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
good point, I like the min 3bet alot actually. this hand is pretty specific as i normally just barrel turn. just a explotative play from my POV and wanted to see what others thought. :)
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
well, he could slowplayed the flush to get 1 more bet from you, or he could have called flop with T9 and decided u dont have flush since u checked turn and wanted to get max value of str8, ur set s 6th nuts :S i dont like why u didnt bet the turn , at least to eliminate possibility str8 got there, kinda ugly spot to check up on him cause everything he could have called flop bet for got there
vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
well when you have a flop x/r around 17% that includes alot of draws in his range and his aggression is really high so i expect him to x/r a huge portion of the time with nut flush draws, open ended straight draws, sets, twopair. When he doesn't x/r flop I discount a large part of his draw portion in his range. Here is another example on the flip side of the coin. We'll use the same flop/turn/river If my cbet % is around 70 then that means i'm cbetting alot of air/draws on top of made hands as well. But if I decide to check flop and villain checks. If I bet turn on a heart There is a large portion of my XXhh range missing, because a normal person would cbet those on the flop. The only conceivable flush that I could have is A8hh which I like to check back to be tricky, since they wont expect it and we have showdown value so its ok to x flop.
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
i understand why u excluded AA KK QQ from his range, i dont understand why u did exclude T9s and Axhh or actually suitconnects~ and if its perheps low suit connect maybe its not in his chechraise range since it doesnt have additional outs as in high cards one flush draw
mike 12 years, 1 month ago
don't think you can 3B river for value as nothing worse calls and given the action your hand is now a bluff catcher

i think you are over-weighting the importance of 17% CH/R stat in your thinking - consider:
- sample size may be a factor (i ran above 20% CH/R for a 30K of hands a while back)
- he may be less likely to CH/R on Kxx
- he may be less likely to CH/R vs you
Jessie Capistrano 12 years, 1 month ago
I think,
Any raise after the re raise only will get called by a hand that beats your trips.
You could do a min raise, and see that he will donk call or fold.
But if he re raises again then you might regret not jus calling.
I like to end hands fast move on, but if you want maximum value,
And you think you are ahead you could min raise at best.
He might have rivered 6 for pocket 6 at best if you think you are ahead
mike 12 years, 1 month ago
"So I'm over weighing the x/r stat because of flop texture?"

maybe :)

just a thought that sample size, history, flop texture could change things - it seemed like you gave a 0% chance to him having a flush draw in his check/call range
vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
What do you suppose is a high x/r% I've always assumed 10% is nutty 15%avg and 20+is super aggro bad. And yeah I took out a lot of his fd combos x/r, he would have to do something wierd for me to consider it. I highly discounted his fd range hehe.
mike 12 years, 1 month ago
yes over 20% is high - what i am saying is that is 20% across all situations and you need to keep in mind that he may not be XR20% in all situations

as far as averages it depends on stakes but i 100NL i would guess somewhere around 10% is average but you can just look it up in HM2 so you know for sure in the games you play

i don't think 10% is nutted as many if not most regs check raise a polarized range which could mean 5% nuts and 5% draws+air
vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
"We'll use the same flop/turn/river If my cbet % is around 70 then that means i'm cbetting alot of air/draws on top of made hands as well. But if I decide to check flop and villain checks. If I bet turn on a heart There is a large portion of my XXhh range missing, because a normal person would cbet those on the flop. The only conceivable flush that I could have is A8hh which I like to check back to be tricky, since they wont expect it and we have showdown value so its ok to x flop." what do you think about this kind of read, a little too over as well?
event78 12 years, 1 month ago
I'd cbet bigger against a tag fish because he won't adjust (he'll call the same range and probably raise the same range as well).

I don't understand why you are using the x/R flop stat to make assumptions on his turn x/R and river x/R. Use all the stats to get an idea of his game. We know he's tight from the blinds which means that he doesn't adjust against BU steals. He probably plays his cards or he has a lot of tables. His calling range is mainly broadways and PP. He's tight so it's normal that his WWSF is high because he goes to the flop with a stronger range than a lot of regs.

His X/R flop is high but his fold to cbet is very high so we can expect his X/R range to be mainly value hands or draws (78s/fd/straight draw/gutshots). Therefore his X/Calling range is mainly sd (Kx/99/TT/JJ?) because he folds a lot to cbet (no floats) so get value turn. Unless he X/R TP flop or turns mid hands into bluff I don't expect him to raise very often turn.

event78 12 years, 1 month ago
It's not likely he floats the flop with 66 as his fold to cbet is really high. Do you think he plays KQ like this and bet/call? I think he'd raise smaller with KQ to induce more calls; sizing = more polarised so I'd just call.

WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
Checking the turn is tragic. I know you have reasons and reads or whatever but I m pretty certain your putting too much credence into your reads and then getting fancy. Theres too much value and protection to be had here OTT.

3 betting the river as played is going to be an overplay. He s unlikely to look you up with much worse and I think your kinda making a crying call tbh vs the river c/r. He s not doing this with 2 pair or worse.
vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
I called happily and was pretty serious about going over his river raise tbh lol, but then I was wondering what worse would call which is why I made this thread.
John Shamwoww 12 years, 1 month ago
Only thing i can potentially see him turning in to a bluff is Ah8x with the NF blocker.

I'd try and find a reason to call before raising on the river. That sizing from a TAG fish looks scary and is either nuts or air. I'd probably look him up depending on my feeling and the fact he could be raising worse for value if he's a fish.

I think 3b river ch/r is burning money though.
James Hudson 12 years, 1 month ago
I'd normally just bet the turn but given that we're here and you have your reads lets just call. Putting in a raise here is incredibly ambitious given that almost all players here are going to be really polarized once they check raise the river. With that in mind, even if he did happen to be check raising a worse hand for value on the river it's going to be near the bottom of his range and you would assume that he can probably get away from it.

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