Preflop: How to adjust with PPs against tight 3-bettors? (pure call vs. pure fold?)
Posted by whiteshark
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whiteshark
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Low Stakes
Preflop: How to adjust with PPs against tight 3-bettors? (pure call vs. pure fold?)
Background:
So this is a question that I have been asking myself pretty often in a session as I can't really get my head around it. Consider this spot where we open with a PP and are confronted with a 3-bet.
Now in theory, many PPs are mixing when facing a 3-bet and being IP (let's just ignore that the 3-bet size is too large for the moment). For instance, this is Wizard's response vs. an optimal opponent. TT-55 are mixing, and 44-22 are pure calls unblocking the bluffing region.
Question:
However: What if we're facing an opponent that's obviously too tight? In this hand, MP played 15/12 with 3% 3bet over 178 hands. I can't quite get my head around whether
a) PPs overperform here since the 3-bettor's range is too strong. Hence, when we hit a set, we stack MP way more often than we should since he's lacking all kinds of folds once we hit a set. If we don't hit a set, we can just XF against a range that's too strong.
=> Adjustment: Medium PPs turn into a pure call
b) PPs underperform since a lot of their EV does not come from hitting sets, but bluffcatching on static runouts and checking down vs. broadway cards. This will obviously work poorly against a 3-betting range that's only comprised of the top 3% of hands.
=> Adjustment: Medium PPs turn into a pure fold
Which one of the two is it?
Loading 8 Comments...
So you open for 2.2 so I assume you have some small pairs in your EP rfi. Those are auto folds vs any 3bets.
Next are the mid pairs like 77-99, which are close to 0 ev to slightly positive calls vs optimal 3bet ranges and sizes. Here normal 3bet sizing would be pot which is about 3.5 and this guy makes it 4x, so easy fold with mid pairs. On top of that his 3bet is so tight JJ/TT are now those close to 0 ev hands, so folding TT/AQs here is fine.
There is no way you should 4bet this since he can shove with impunity and be way ahead. Calling here is pure set mining so if you do you need to get max value from overpairs always and on some boards it is not possible.
Thanks for the feedback. Just gonna fold these medium PPs from now on ;-)
Not sure about this statement. If you look closely into the ranges then the small pairs 44-22 call pure vs. the 3-bet (+EV) while medium PPs are mixing call/fold (0EV). Not 100% sure why this is but this is something that I have noticed in many positional configurations already where we're the OOP defender.
I use Snowie so it probably isn't as theoretically correct as the solver you are using, perhaps more practical as it folds 88-99 vs this size and only calls down to 77 vs normal 3bet size in EP vs BTN. But then again it is not even raising hands 22-44 in early position so it has to defend the mid pairs vs optimal 3betting opponents.
I don't really understand why your solver wants to call 22-44 over mid pairs. I know there are instances where solvers prefer to call stuff like 65/54s over 76/78/89s in very marginal 3bet spots. Only reason is board coverage will be better on the stuff that doesnt hit opponent 3betting range and you will cooler small Axs sometime. Maybe this is the reason your solver prefers low pairs over mid, but its not enough to convince me they make better calls than mid pairs.
Also the wizard ranges seem really wide and loose in practice vs tight 3betting pool and it feels like you are burning money. Does it show the EV of TT-55? They should be close to 0 ev no? If its close to 0 ev in theory its a fold in practice imo.
Mix fold always mean 0EV in solver regardless of the spot. Only call because there is an exploit if not calling them. Then they're +EV if the exploits happens.
You can just fold like crazy. Definitely don't call extra loose vs nitty regs when OOP. I think 200nl is the first stake you are "forced" to find these calls at decent frequency. OOP it's more important to find the thin 4bets than the thin calls. Yes, even at lower stakes you should find the thin 4bets in most spots against regs. Obviously if they have 5% 3bet you just fold and 4bet good stuff. No need to donate money to just strong stuff.
Alright, I mean I would have never called extra loose with hands like SCs or one gappers but I always wondered whether setmining specifically goes up in value vs. tight ranges. But I definitely see that overall it's not worth it since we're loosing a lot of EV that we should have with these PPs when bluffcatching or checking down to showdown.
Set value is not enough usually unless price is really good. If they 3bet pot or smaller OOP at 100bb, you can call the stuff that's not dominated. Need to go all the way down to like 60% pot or something when they're IP.
Against fish is more like you talk about because implied odds are much much better.
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