Pre flop 3bet or fold ranges
Posted by mitchr1598
Posted by
mitchr1598
posted in
Mid Stakes
Pre flop 3bet or fold ranges
So I've decided to adopt a 3 bet or fold strategy vs an open in all positions except the BB. I've done this partly to avoid high rake and partly to make my ranges easier to balance post flop. The ranges should obviously be linear. I've chosen a smaller 3 bet size (3x the open size) so I can VPIP more and I'm not too worried about giving my opponent a good price. I've constructed some ranges and was wondering if I could get some opinions on them. I found the last two on another site. I likely won't play to the mixed strategies in practice, instead I'll adjust to opponents tendencies
vs UTG
MP: TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
CO: 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
BU: 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+
SB: 88+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
vs MP
CO: 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+
BU: 77+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo
SB: 66+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AQo+, KQo
vs CO
BU: 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KQo
SB: 100: 55+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+, 50: 44-22, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T8s, 65s, 54s, AJo, KQo
vs BU
SB: 100: 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AJo+, KQo, 50: 97s, 86s, 54s, ATo, KJo, QJo
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what is your c bet strategy in 3 bet pots, 100% 1/3 OR halv pot 65 % etc..?
Yeah, 100% @1/3 size
Although I'm not convinced I can do that from the SB, so I'll run PIO to see if I can
Isn't a non-linear 3betting range a lot better ip?
Not when you don't have a calling range. It doesn't make sense to 3 bet hand A and fold hand B if hand B is better than hand A
any graphs or results?
Don't have a tracked sample, sorry. Been mostly playing on sites that don't have HH as the games have been way better than stars. And haven't been playing this strategy as the games are mostly fish, so I want to VPIP more.
Pretty sure many people have been successfully executing this strat though. If you wanted to know validity of the ranges then PIO solver would be a good way to test them before executing the strat
Mitchell,
Your 3b or fold ranges look pretty solid. Would you mind sharing a little more about how you constructed them? I am also playing mainly a 3b or fold strategy in cash but my 3b ranges are much wider. I'm playing in anonymous zone pools where villains literally never have any sample on you so using very exploitative ranges PF makes a ton of sense, however having tighter ranges makes the postflop game tree more playable and easier to learn how to play many spots.
Also, I think it makes sense to use 2 3bet sizings- one for IP 3bets and one for OOP 3bets. I've personally been using 3x IP 4x OOP (so 4x from SB and BB).
I constructed them by pretty using my knowledge of poker to estimate the EV of 3-betting each hand, given the ranges of both players. However, I'm currently in the process of redoing them more rigorously using PIO solver and CREV. PIO solver will give very accurate EV estimations for when the pot goes heads up. I can then use that to estimate the equity realized when multi-way. And CREV is very useful for calculating the EV, as all I have to do is put in the ranges for all players as well as the post flop EV. I've already made some adjustments to the ranges, so my new ranges will be much better
Yeah, I agree with different 3-bet sizes. When I had calling ranges I used pot IP and 4x OOP. Without the calling ranges I think using a smaller size makes sense as you can VPIP more and the pre flop opener will be facing a stronger range, so giving them a better price isn't an issue. So I use 3x IP, pot in the SB and 4x from the BB (as I'm still calling hands in the BB)
Cool, thanks for the reply. When you say you use PIO for redoing preflop ranges, does that require the Edge subscription to do preflop solves, or are you able to do that with a pro or basic version?
You can do it on the pro version using the flops found here. You just run a script on a flop subset and then use the "Runouts aggregated frequencies analysis over multiple flops" tool and it'll give you the average amount of chips each hand receives from the pot
looks pretty good to me. aggregating postflop EVs from pio, estimating your overall R, and then using that in CREV checkdown is a method I have used for preflop stuff in the past.
if you have pio edge, a much easier way is to run the preflop spot, for example CO vs. UTG, then estimate the frequency you get 4bet by BTN/SB/BB and subtract that loss in EV from the number pio gave you (you don't really have to worry about going to postflop because your breakeven-ish 3bets will either fold or make a close to breakeven call or jam vs. a 4bet. just assume you fold to all 4bets with the borderline hands).
you should 3b some suited connectors vs utg/mp for balance postflop
Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you not even considering the VPIP of the villain? Never saw anything about that in this post. Or is it simply you have noted a strong positive EV simply by making those plays based solely on position? Also, what is your C Bet frequency with this style?
These are default ranges played against villains I have no info on. If I notice they are opening an unusual frequency then I adjust to exploit them. I cbet 100% of the time for 1/3 of the pot
how about cbet 100% half pot in 3bet pot. It´s harder for them to reraise small on the flop.
Why are you 3betting wider vs MP oop than IP otb? If those combos are not profitable 3bets otb, do you think the dead money and 1 less person 4betting you makes up for that? If you're 3bet or folding only that means you actually play a wider range in the SB than otb vs early positions.
Yeah, I made these a while ago and didn't notice that at the time. I've re done most of these ranges with CREV and PIO and got far more accurate ranges
Does this not lead to you're 3 bets having little to no merit? I feel as if any player who pays somewhat of any kind of attention would pick up on this and call very light a much higher percentage of the time. This in turn would lead to getting check raised a lot otf, no?
As it turns out, this isn't a problem. Most of the time, due to us having a far stronger range, the best strategy in these spots is high frequency betting for a smaller size. On most boards if we decide to bet 100% of our range, and our opponent maximally exploits this, then our strategy still has roughly the same EV
What are your new ranges? And how's it going so far?
Only done about half of them so far as I've been busy with other stuff, although I'm looking to finish them very soon. They took a lot of my time and a lot of work so I can't just give them away on a forum. Some people have paid me for them and my working. I don't want to come across as though I'm trying to make money off them, as I'm not. The only reason I'm charging a small price is because I spent a lot of time on them and I'm not willing to give that away for free. I'll inbox you the details of them and you can let me know if you're interested
How do you adjust to 4bets? In multi way pots? Vs 200, 300, 400bb stacks? With 200, 300, 400bb stacks yourself?
So I only made them for 100bb stacks. I used CREV for the pre flop part which allows multi way action. I did it for when the other players have a cold calling range, and when they only 4bet or fold, to see which is worse for us. Then for the future iterations I only considered what was worse for us. For the post flop multi way pots, I had a look at the equity realized for each hand in the HU pots and used that to estimate the equity realized in the multiway pots.
So sb vs co and btn you're 3 betting all suited aces, as opposed to just the straightening ones?
i would like to see a pro video about this in live play
Thanks for the ranges Mitchell. One question, why are we 3Bing KQo SB vs MP 100% but only 50% SB vs CO?
Yeah, as mentioned in the post, these ranges weren't done rigorously. I'm in the process of doing that now
You didn´t have a calling range preflop except in the BB? Do you still play like this?
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