Playing against extremely large 4 bets at 100 BB
Posted by fl0ww
Posted by
fl0ww
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Mid Stakes
Playing against extremely large 4 bets at 100 BB
I recently encountered a few players who like to 4-bet to ~35 BB against a standard 11 BB OOP 3-bet. How should I adjust to this? Suppose, for instance, you're 3-betting a ~15% range from SB vs. BTN and face this line. Does it even make sense to have a calling range there? If so, what hands should call? If not, what should a 5b-jam range look like? I always feel like I'm in tough spots with hands like AQs, AJs, 88, etc.
Thanks for any help.
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5B or fold usually, not sure what the 5B jam range would be for non-antes but can run it through a solver and get back to you if you'd like, just need your 3B range from the small blind. Also if you have an assumed 4B range for villain I can show you the exploitative solution rather than just what you jam against a balanced 4B range as a lot of people are underbluffing with 4B so you may be setting money on fire.
That'd be fantastic. Here's my SB vs. BTN 3b range, 2.5 BB -> 11 BB: https://hastebin.com/pinikegeto.css. I'm not sure what the 4b range should look like, although I usually see QQ+, AK, and then a tiny bit of random Ax bluffs. This is the BTN RFI range I'm assuming: https://hastebin.com/apiwoquhud.css.
Thanks a lot for your help!
Yeah, I'll still run it so you can get a look at what GTO looks like but when the 4B range is that tight usually the response is just to then be appropriately nitty and you jam KK with a bit of AA and AK (prefers suited to offsuit) then call AA/QQ/JJ/TT/AK
Edit: couldn't paste button open properly so just going to put in a roughly 40% opening range that I use in non ante games.
So the GTO response is to just shove 99+, AQs, AK and 50% of AQo but their 4B range is going to be too tight so I'd recommend shoving QQ+ (maybe JJ but I think that might be a punt to be honest) and AK until you see that they have 4B folds, once you see them fold to the shove I'd then expand it to include TT+ and AQs, don't think there are many people using this massive 4B sizing who are going to be balanced enough for you to include 99 and the AQo combos though.
Thanks! Which solver did you use for this? I've been thinking about upgrading to PIO preflop.
Was Pio edge, it's good but still can't do multiway so you have to kind of work around it's limitations to get the most out of it
I like that the 5b range widens from the standard 5b range vs. a normal 4b sizing. Similar to how BB 3b ranges get wider vs slightly bigger RFIs.
I would recommend seeing what hands BU in your example is showing down so you can get some idea of their range in this spot (also we can assume that they are likely never folding to 5-bet jams with that sizing).
For sake of example, let's say BU's 4-betting range is: QQ+,AK,Ah5h,Ah4h:
If we take your 15% sb vs bu 3-bet range::
And then we filter for hands in your 15% range that have pot odds to call (looks like you are getting 33.3% pot odds) vs the range we assigned (QQ+,AK,Ah5h,Ah4h) you can see what hands have at least 33% equity:
To answer your original question, it looks like AJo is an easy fold and 88 is at least a call vs the range we assigned. Whether or not you have a 4-bet calling range here is a stylistic choice and there is no correct answer IMO but I assume most people choose to 5-bet jam and keep it simple. For example, a good 4-bet calling range strategy probably includes lots of stop-n-go's.
According to this, JJ+,AK has about 50% equity vs Villain's 4-betting range. So for example, you could mainly jam JJ+ and work some AK into your 4-bet calling range. And then be sure to stop-n-go some AK bluffs on various flops. Essentially think up a strategy that makes your opponents decisions as hard as possible which means you will likely be stealing some equity :-) Also it's very likely BU is 4-betting wider than the range I made up, in which case something like TT+,AK would be good to jam and then maybe AQo,AJs,JTs become flats....
You're ignoring EQR which is a costly mistake.
Could you elaborate on what you mean? I wouldn't think equity realization is much of concern when we are talking about 5-bet jamming... seems like we will always be realizing?
You were talking about call EQ vs. his 4b-range?
Yeah above I was talking about both 5-bet jamming or some people work in a 4-bet calling range based on their style. If you go with the 4-bet calling range style above I also mentioned I think a lot of stop-n-go is correct so that we can be realizing instead of our opponents... (sorry if that wasn't clear)
When he makes so big 4bets we can exploit him - by shoving any 2 cards we did 3 bet, if his folding % to jam is off. I'm not sure he ever suppose to fold after this size///
As well as if we play fold/5bet jam we can fold possible close to 65-70% of our range and 30% of our range 99s+,AQs+
p.s. When we jam IP have ~33% to call, that's pretty much enough(of course it is not enough but only 2-3% off) to call A5s/KQo vs our value range, so either he has to choose ragged bluffs or never bluff.
Calling is probably not a thing, in theory you should probably just shove 99+, AQs+ and AKo and be done with it. If someone uses a ridiculous sizing like that though, they're generally recreational players and most of them probably fall into one of two categories; nit or a maniac. Againts maniacs you can shove the range described above and then some, and againts nits you may want to go as tight as JJ+ or QQ+ and AK.
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