NL[600] What do you think about this x/c x/c x/ shove spot?

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NL[600] What do you think about this x/c x/c x/ shove spot?

Dear,

I played this spot today, it seems ok to me but i'd like to know your feedback

Hand History for Game 14678324769
€3/€6 EUR NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, July 17, 22:10:57 HAEC 2015
Table Poitiers (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6/6
Seat 4: DameCandice ( €600 EUR )
Seat 6: Nabilla Officia ( €619.20 EUR )
Seat 1: PAPPAW ( €594 EUR )
Seat 2: pastisse051 ( €600 EUR )
Seat 3: suuze ( €664 EUR )
Seat 5: victoman ( €638 EUR )
victoman posts small blind [€3 EUR].
Nabilla Officia posts big blind [€6 EUR].
* Dealing down cards *
Dealt to Nabilla Officia [ 7c Td ]
pastisse051 raises [€12 EUR]
victoman folds
DameCandice has left the table.
Nabilla Officia calls [€6 EUR]
* Dealing Flop * [ 6h, 2c, 7d ]
Nabilla Officia checks
pastisse051 bets [€18.90 EUR]
Nabilla Officia calls [€18.90 EUR]
* Dealing Turn * [ 6s ]
Nabilla Officia checks
pastisse051 bets [€41.86 EUR]
Nabilla Officia calls [€41.86 EUR]
* Dealing River * [ Jd ]
Nabilla Officia checks
pastisse051 bets [€109.89 EUR]
Nabilla Officia is all-In [€546.44 EUR]
pastisse051 is all-In [€417.35 EUR]
pastisse051 shows [ 7s, 6d ]a full house, Sixes full of Sevens.
Nabilla Officia shows [ 7c, Td ]two pairs, Sevens and Sixes.
Nabilla Officia wins €19.20 EUR from the side pot 1 with two pairs, Sevens and Sixes.
pastisse051 wins €1,201 EUR from the main pot with a full house, Sixes full of Sevens.

I've got 77, plenty of 6 (he doesn't have much in his range) and 22 but it seems to me that i will c/shove too much if i do this with this kind of hand.
His range is not that polarized in the way that he can still value A7 and 88+
You thought?

Thanks in advance

27 Comments

Loading 27 Comments...

MrSneeze 9 years, 6 months ago

party.fr right ;). We probably played together a bit.

Don't like the play too much, I think this hand should be in your calling range more than bluffing range, if not a fold river.
As for XRAI 6x river, sure, but you could also XR turn, that would have a lot of merits to defend a bluffraising range (you can then include in that the weak draws you called on the flop for instance). So IDK if you can credibly rep all 6x, you're probably not shoving 64, but more looking to XR or lead turn.
As for 77, you might 3B that preflop? IDK, I do versus BTN minraise some % of the time.

Also, against vilain in particular, I don't agree that he has few 6x in his range, quite the contrary, because he's opening very loose from what I think of him, and I'm pretty sure he would cbet 6x more often than he checks back, because he likes to barrel as a general strategy and he would also consider 6x has way enought value and need for protection to be a bet on the flop. IMO, it should be a bet on the flop with 6x more often than not in BTN shoes.
So if anything, I'd say that he has more 6x in his range than you because you won't defend as many 6x as he opens.
And on the river, I think vilain will be pretty balanced in his bet / calling range, I mean he's good. I think in general he's also more the type to hero call than hero fold, just because of his agressive tendencies.

sweet16 9 years, 6 months ago

Having a ten in our hand is rly rly bad imo. Since turn is rainbow his straight draws should be his first go to bluffing hands, and you block most of them. We're too far down in our range to turn this into a bluff on the river imo.

Random Numbers 9 years, 6 months ago

Yeah i guess so.
Thanks for your answer.
Which will be your perfect range for c/shove river here? 78?
Or do you prefer to c/r turn and shove river as MrSneeze says?

MrSneeze 9 years, 6 months ago

I'm not saying you should XR turn and shove river with your hand, I just said that you would check-raise 6x on the turn sometimes, which is not so good for representing a 6 on the river when you check/shove.

fluxrazza 9 years, 5 months ago

I would think his turn barrel range is v strong given that the 6 is not good for his range. By the river he has to realise you have a decent number of 6x so I really don't think he is going to be making many thin vbets, which makes your play pretty disastrous. Fold>call>>>shove seems like the order of options, heavily leaning towards fold given how rarely people triple barrel bluff this runout.

Numbers 9 years, 5 months ago

What about leading turn here ?
I think id like it with my range, we make him fold all his overs that have equity, that otherwise take a freecard allot i think.

Will Winaton 9 years, 5 months ago

A lot of players bet their 6x on a flop like this so I don't think the turn is so much better for us in this case. First thing went through my mind was leading turn too though.

sweet16 9 years, 5 months ago

Leading a polarized range for a bigger sizing seems kinda cool to me, however I don't think T7o should be in that range (Haven't looked at it so I dont rly know for sure)..

If we lead really wide for a small sizing with a big part of our range, I'm not sure we accomplish anything at all because our range is so weak preflop and his range is so strong. Like he should still have profitable call with most of his range I guess because he's going to have two overs here pretty much always.

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

Good job, call preflop raises with T7off in NL600.

FriendlyCritter 9 years, 4 months ago

Villain opens for a min raise, which indicates a 50%+ range.
We get ~22% immediate pot odds.
Our hand has 38% equity against a 50% range (39% against a 60% range).

Given pot odds and 5% rake, we need to realize about 60% of our equity to have a break even call. Which seems pretty reasonable given positions and a somewhat connected hand. (It can at least flop a straight, for example - it's not T5o).

You seem to imply that it's a clear fold, which I disagree with. At worst, it's a close decision. Maybe we can fold if we are outmatched by our opponent and really want to avoid playing them OOP. But based on pot odds and equity alone, it seems like we should be calling.

Gay Theory 9 years, 4 months ago

but u dont perfectly realise ur equity unless u just calldown with 1P and hope he bluff , 1P is gut vs 50% range ..
and u gonna btw flop 2P+ only 4% of time with dis shiewt

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

Have to agree with Gaucan, you dont realize your EQ, you dont have enough semibluff potential to float flopoop or x/raise it. You will have to fold against a c-bet 70% of the time I guess at least and have to fold turns at a high frequencie.

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

We can make an even easier argument about what move preflop is best. Take it as an longterm investment game.

If we just fold any given time, we "lose" 1bb with T7off from bb. Fair deal for me.

If we call, we have to at least win back that additional 1bb per 100 in order to just breakeven. If we just breakeven, folding pre is better as it reduces variance and shows the same EV in this case.

So unless you can clearly say you can win more than 1bb on average, you should dump the hand right there preflop. And justifying it by being able to out play villain oop as caller, that requires some reads like, villain always calls off with overpairs when we hit our trips, or villain checks back too many flops and folds to too many turn leads etc.

Also look at reversed implied odds; even flopping a "monster" like trip TT will mostly cost you as kicker still matters. A straight is a very seldom occasion when havein 2 gaps in our hand. Twopair can be easily counterfitted as well and flushes are impossible to make.

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

Also, if "minraise indicates 50%++ range", 3betting becomes imuch more profitable than flatting as villain will have to fold more than half of his opening range.

ilikethat 9 years, 4 months ago

Sorry meant to reply to disharmonist, Didnt realize it replies to the last one to reply to his earlier comment.

You should stop typing like a 12y btw.

Will Winaton 9 years, 4 months ago

Disharmonist, do you really think an NL600 reg doesn't know the downsides of calling T7off? Against a minraise we just have enough potodds, and a good regular can make a profit calling this hand. That's it.
I agree that you shouldn't call it preflop.. Rake at your stakes make it -EV most likely even if you'd play very good.

but u dont perfectly realise ur equity unless u just calldown with 1P
and hope he bluff , 1P is gut vs 50% range ..

gaucan, is this the a criterion for realizing more EQ?
You can realize most of your EQ if you play your hand well.. not if you calldown hoping he's bluffheavy IMO.

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

Ok, so when a novice player makes this call (and the postflop play) when is playing at his NL25 at one table, he is a a "fish", a losing player, but at NL 600 it becomes ok? In fact, making loose calls, just to make a fancy bluff line that really represents (almost) nothing. Villain doesnt even have to be tricky or think too deeply about his own hand as we just shove a whole buy-in down the drain. In what world does that mean playing well? Playing well is about making more +EV plays than -EV plays. While flop and turn call are slightly +EV, river shove is highly - EV unless ofc, you have seen villain fold to a lot of x/raises.

Will Winaton 9 years, 4 months ago

Sometimes I feel like you're just writing to write something and not to make a point. It wasn't about the actual hand here. We were discussing the profitability of calling the MR preflop.

You should watch tyler's missed cbets vid.. A lot of elite vids cover this topic though.
I accept your opinion but you won't be able to convince me that calling T7o vs a minraise is a mistake, or at least not with the arguments you made.

Disharmonist 9 years, 4 months ago

We shouldnt make isolated "1 street" decisions. A hand has to be played out when we decide to enter the pot passivly. If we start off with a slim +EV move but end up in too many spots where we cannot tell what the best play is, we will unfortunatly pick the least profitable too often unless we are fully aware that our game is as close as possible to the theoretical optimal, which I doubt anybody can convincingly say youbt themselfs.

With T7, we have to x/fold about 70% flops, which is a 0 EV move, the rest of flops are "meh" most times so why try to find so many reasons to get involved the hand.

Sauce123 9 years, 4 months ago

Villain shouldn't bet a range on the river that lets you XR 6x for value, especially since you'll be taking a mixed bluffcatching strategy with 7x. It should be clear that if you're mixing at all with 7x then villain can't bet 88 for value successfully enough to fade a high freq XR from all your trips+ combos. My point is just that the equilibrium on river is tighter than it seems like OP thinks.

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