NL50 Turn Ace is a bad card to barrel, right?
Posted by bdon22
Posted by
bdon22
posted in
Low Stakes
NL50 Turn Ace is a bad card to barrel, right?
And I'm not just being results oriented?
I don't think I can even bluff this river often either because SB is a fish and is never folding an A or 2 pair here.
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I would bet the turn especially vs a fish, hes gunna call junk like J4 on the flop, so even tho he never folds an ace (and may not even have folded the hand he did, but he may have), his range has soooo many other hands that can find a fold that with your equity I think its +EV. Plus it makes the pot bigger so when you do spike and he calls your river bet you win more.
Once you check back turn, I dunno, to me it seems like once you show weakness fish call damn near any pair (but we obviously never see what they fold, so theres obviously a huge bias) Altho he still has a bunch of garbage 7x and 4x and stuff, so it prolly still wouldnt be bad, I think the 4 straight actually helps you because fish just read the board and think about what can beat them, not about how much of it is actually in your range.
I`d almost always double barrel nut flush draw + two overs against a fish who is rarely folding any pair on the flop but folds a lot on the turn.You also get value from worse flush draws.
As played i`d bluff the river with the bottom of my range, you still have enough combos of 6x that check back the turn.
I think there needs to be more info about the recreational player and whether he is weak tight, loose passive, etc. Personally, I wouldn't barrel this board vs most fish. I think you played it fine, theres no problem trying to realize your equity and giving up on some pots.
First of all, he is never folding an Ace, 88-KK and 7x or 4x some of which might have gutter to go along with it on the turn, so if you are planning to bluff it has to be 3 streets to get him off these weakish hands. This is something I'm not fond of on Ace high board since they almost never fold an ace and recreational players tend to be very ace heavy in their ranges. As played I would definitely check back the river as it just looks like a last-ditch attempt to steal the pot.
I think like sebas wrote, we need some informations about the recreational player. There are different types of them.
As default i would barrel this board, BUT against an weaker player i just take the freecard and try to realize my equity. I think when he calls this board, then he won't fold to a second barrel enough.
Recreational players like to play aces, therefore he have a lot of Ax hands in his range.
I really like a barrel here, if you include his whole range you are in a great situation where better hands fold and lots of worse hands can still call.
Plus you have 9 outs to the stone cold nuts and probably some overs a good amount of the time where you can check and win at showdown.
You also have the beauty of being in position if you get raised.
I barrel here all day vs most people, if I get raised. I decide if I can make back, what I lose in equity with implieds by the river based on what I think my opponent has (strong hand or bluff). AND if he is aggressive.
What you don't want to be doing is betting twice and giving up. So either cbet and check behind or triple barrel. With so much equity as back up i prefer the latter. Villain should be raising the turn with some frequency with hands 2p+ so when he does get to the river he will be mostly bluff-catching with weak Ax. Its good to realize that generally villain's aren't folding their top pair Aces but sometimes that big river bet is just what is required to get the fold.
Yeah this is a great line but I think only vs regs and ONLY when you balance this out with some strong hands (which I guess in this spot you have a bunch of in your bet bet shove range).
I think trippling vs a fish is bad, because once they call the turn their range is then pretty ace heavy, and trying to get a fish to fold TP aces is a good way to light money on fire imo
I'm not agreeing with you Daz, but maybe because my TP is flawed... Imo, in fish's eyes, a missed flush draw is what he sees and the frequency of his river calls goes up. If you make a big bet, looks even more bluffy so you will get looked up often
@itstoothpastelswear, from what range analysis i've done on this board, versus a tight range you can cbet gu but versus a loose range they have so many hands that can't stand multiple barrels. fish are fish because they don't look past the street they on, they call with all their pairs, gut shots backdoors with no idea that they will be faced with further aggression and have to fold too often on later streets, since their hand doesn't improve that often.
Remember you betting risking say: 3/4 bet so villain has to fold 40% is range AND you have at least 9 nut outs for 18% padding per street. with KsQs here you actually might often be value betting versus loose preflop ranges
@stopdreaming, i routinely bet big or shove over shove my nut hands so i don't mind this so much. it just would be such a pity for villain to showdown a medium pair that turned a flush draw or straight draw that was stubborn and called again. I see this very often on lower stakes, they peel flop turn light then fold the river
yeah, im not saying I dont like flop and turn bets, Im saying I dont like the river bet. Hes getting rid of most of his junk on the the turn imo, the junk he isnt connects with this river, or its an ace, and we arent getting either to fold enough imo
I don't get it - the hand linked has an 8 on the turn, not an ace. Is this the hand you meant to post, or is the title screwy?
As posted, I agree with Daz
Against a reg I would triple barrel this but against a fish with his range heavily weighted towards Ax hands I'm really hesitant. I've been called down by TPNK so many times in this spot that I'm just a bit weary of barreling on these type of boards vs. fish and would rather take my free equity. If there is no A then I would gladly barrel I think.
I'd 2barrel here, if you don't have any reads (maybe you should post his stats at least) I would go with mine overall fish population leaks, in this case imo calling too much. Maybe he's calling once on the flop and give up at the turn... fishes tend to call often at the flop and less often at the turn imho. So you have FE + pot equity, I'm def bet
Actually I think the best line here is to bet the flop+turn and then chk the river because if u say he is a fish he will peel ALOT of flops. I dont agree with some people here I think u can get 4x 55 and 66 hands to fold enough times to alteast breakeven or show some profit. We also dont encounter how many times we hit a flush K,Q and win and you get more money in a pot with a nut draw. Most fishesh chk-calls with their flushdraws and u have to find a way to take rest off their stack and punish thier 8s2s type of hands
On the river your range doest NOT improve and if the fish did not got scared on the turn with his 7x he will defintly call your river bet. But if the river is a TJKQ and Spades you can fire again and make that hand fold enough. I know that in the big mentality is people should 3-barell more but thats against people who can understand different ranges we are represting and looks scary.(I think somebody allready posted this just pointing out what u said not trying to steal ure thoughts:) ) The fish will not think: ''ahh he is 3-barreling even when the ace hits and the river does not improve his range so he must be strong''. But more like: ''Only 8 and an A beat me I call''. Not betting the turn here is in my opinion a big mistake where you loose money.
I`m actually shocked that most people are suggesting just barreling once, automatically realizing your equity and never bluffing KQs on the river here, which is pretty much the bottom of our range.Even against a fish, never bluffing bottom of your range is making you super unbalanced.Which means you have zero bluffs in your range when you DO bet.So they`re just gonna be peeling a ton of trash vs you trying to get to showdown.There`s like 30 combos in our range that check the turn but value bet river : 66,A6s-A5s,K6s,86s,76s,64s.I`d pretty much never show this hand down unless i had strong reads on the villain.
So are you suggesting I take a bet/check/bet line or triple barrel like many suggested? A little unclear.
Read both of my comments.
We should never worry about balancing vs a fish, we should be playing maximally exploitative. 1) they arent capable of deciphering our ranges and tendancies 2) They arent going to be around long enough that it ever matters.
bet/x/bet seems the worst in my opinion the its better to either bet/x/x or bet/bet/x or just bet/bet/bet.
Obviously nobody suggested that as a main line to take, i`m saying as played betting river > checking.
ItsToothPasteISwear - This guy looks more like a reg fish, so he`s gonna be around.And the way you play all your hands, both vs fish and regulars reflects on your HUD stats, which most of decent regulars these days are semi competent at deciphering.
Also it`s a good spot to bluff.He`s usually gonna block bet small his sets/two pair hands, and when he checks again on the river, his range looks transparently weak.So i think not betting this river is a mistake.
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