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NL400 deep: action turn?

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Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

NL400 deep: action turn?

BN: 792.78 (Hero)
SB: 1126.90
BB: 505.96
UTG: 893.49
HJ: 701.06
CO: 416.95
I've been playing fairly aggro but also very well in the session.
Vilain is a tight and good reg, 21/18 overall, open between 12-15% in this situation. Cb flop 75% but checks turns a fair amount (60%+). Players in the blinds are both capable of taking squeeze spots, but are not overflatting that much from the blinds.
50 hands before, I flat AKo on the button vs same player HJ, SB squeezed, I shoved, he called with AJs and I doubled up.
Preflop (6) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt K K
UTG folds, HJ raises to 12, CO folds, Hero calls 12, SB folds, BB folds
I much prefer to flat here than to 3b vs such a tight opener. Of course I could 3b and see merits to it, but it fits better my overall strategy to flat in this spot.
Flop (30) 2 K J (2 Players)
HJ bets 21, Hero raises to 48, HJ raises to 121.80, Hero calls 73.80
Good situation.
Turn (294.60) 7 (2 Players)
HJ bets 136.80
Vilain has 430 behind and I cover. Basically decision here is between calling and shoving, I can see merits to both ; what do you prefer and why?

10 Comments

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PokerIsHard 10 years, 6 months ago

I think I 4B this flop, too many bad turn can kill the action if he got underset, and if he got a draw, he can x/f turn if he missed...


Once you flat the flop 3B, I think it is better to call down. His sizing seems weak, so I think he will fold more versus a ship. If his sizing was 240€+, you have an easy ship.


River will be tricky to play on diamond and 9, A... But at least you are IP, and can value if he checks. If he ships on a diamond, probably solid fold ;)

UpUpAndAway 10 years, 6 months ago

Cool hand. I especially like your mini flop raise IP on this board- I'll have to play with this sizing myself. I assume you're doing it with hands like gutters and decent draws as well?

I think villain will likely call your raise with most of his draws considering it's deep and he's OOP. Since he did 3bet your raise, I would guess his range is something like JJ,22,KJ,QTdd,ATdd,AQdd,T9dd,Q9dd, and the occasional hand like AdQ/AdT I suppose. Let me know what you think of this range I assigned him but all I have to go on is that hes a tight, good 21/18 reg.

I do like your flat of his 3b on the flop since, although his hand range should be fairly strong and not all that likely to fold to a 4b, flatting keeps your range a lot wider and makes it way more likely villain continues to barrel off.

I doubt he's betting this turn size to induce a shove from you considering how big the pot is, the odds he's giving you on your draws, and the fact that your range is percieved to be capped with your PF flat/flop 3b call. I also think he would bet larger with his sets so I think his sizing indicates either a combo draw or rare Ad bluff that is setting up a larger river jam. For these reasons I prefer a turn flat. But given his range, I'm not sure you can really fold on literally any river card.

Sebastian 10 years, 6 months ago

As played, I jam over turn bet. Our hand is super under repped, if he has JJor 22, I don't ever expect him to fold. He may call with QdTd but not sure but so many rivers will either counterfeit our action or our hand. If an A,9 or d hit river, I think sets can find a river fold. Especially if we don't know if guy will bluff missed draws, plus I think guys are going to be more hesitant to bluff 200bbs stacks especially if reg is on tighter side. So He could likely just give up on missed rivers so jamming turn: denyies equity and will get called by worse sets.

I like a flop 4bet for the reasons PokerIsHard stated.


R0b5ter 10 years, 6 months ago

Preflop I much prefer 3bet. flop nice play. Turn just call and go for stacks on almost all rivers. Protect your draws and keep his bluffs in. U


bdon22 10 years, 6 months ago

I think one of the reasons we flat flop with KK is to keep the hand out of villain's estimation of our range (aka deception).

So given that we hit the dream flop and villain is clearly showing no indication of slowing down, I would have put in another bet OTF.

On the turn I would just look to stick the rest of the money in as too many cards can kill our action on the river. If we flat and one of the bad cards come, our hand will look exactly like what villain thinks it is - which is BAD for us since we don't get paid off!

R0b5ter 10 years, 6 months ago

To everyone saying Hero should 4bet flop. In position in a situation where villain is super polarized do you really think it's wise to raise against that range with your range?

bdon22 10 years, 6 months ago

The board is dynamic enough that the bluffs he choses will have lots of outs. So we can get more value out of those hands by raising and pricing villain in with the absolute nuts. If it were a rainbow board or more disconnected then 4-betting becomes less attractive.

MrSneeze 10 years, 6 months ago
Yeah agreed with Robster, although I'd be willing to 4B with my actual hand, there's no way I'd want to 4b a draw (because it sucks to 4b/fold my equity and it also sucks to stack off 200bb deep, usually, because vilain will often have a set).
All in all I think most of the hands I'm raising with I'd be more willing to call/float, hoping either: to realize my equity / take down the pot later / let vilain bluff the turn.

4b just look absurdly strong IMO ; it would make sense versus a spazzy LAG (because he'll be willing to 3B too weak of a range, or might level himself) ; versus that opponent, I think it's bad, because he'll never expect me to have any bluff.

If I raised the flop with KJ or 22, I would NOT want to 4b and stack off. JJ can go either way.


themightyjim 10 years, 6 months ago
to continue with Rob and MrSneeze's point, don't think about your hand vs villain's range when advocating a 4bet, think about your range vs villains range.  If you had T9dd on this flop would you 4bet? What about A2dd?  What about 22?

Your range plays much better if you can flat a lot of strong draws and some made hands that are behind his 5bet stacking range on the flop.  But if you're always 4betting the top of your range when you do flat his 3bet he can correctly barrel you off lots of equity and correctly value bet thinly.

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