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nl25 sh deep 3bet/small 4 bet

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

nl25 sh deep 3bet/small 4 bet

Blinds: $0.10/$0.25 (6 Players) BN: $47.63
SB: $35.05 (Hero)
BB: $41.65
UTG: $46.54
MP: $56.13
CO: $25.98
Preflop ($0.35) Hero is SB with K Q
3 folds, BN raises to $0.62, Hero raises to $2.50, BB folds, BN raises to $5.10, Hero calls $2.60
villian 23/18/ 3 bet 8% 500h, fold v bet was 40-50%, and 4 small sample ( did couple times on button/co)
wwsf 57 wsd 63 agr freq 38/44/33 cbet a lot otf, turn low sample
Flop ($10.45) 4 8 Q
Hero checks, BN bets $4.30, Hero calls $4.30
Turn ($19.05) 4 8 Q 3
Hero checks, BN bets $8.00, Hero calls $8.00
River ($35.05) 4 8 Q 3 J
Hero checks, BN bets $30.23 and is all in

pre call is whatever, vs size fine.
flop standard, turn? ( I feel close about calling with Kc, because I imagine people tend to 4 bet Kxss, or Qxss)
river no question, tough to find bluffs aslo

19 Comments

Loading 19 Comments...

LuckyMer 9 years, 7 months ago

River he is essentially betting 1/2 pot, so why is there no question?

We are beaten by AA, KK, QQ (10 combos) and some AQ that decided to 4-bet (maybe 2-3 combos more) overall 12 combos. I guess the question now is if villain gonna have 6 bluffs. I'd say that generally not, but with such high WWSF and AF I'd have hard time folding there.

The only reason to fold is that we prob will have all AQ here to call down. So given that, fold looks fine. Unless you are going to fold AQ too.

Jeff_ 9 years, 7 months ago

I said no question- because it is a guess game pretty much.
his wwsf so high, most likely because he was running good. And my hand is particulary bad to call, other KQ we can consider.

iMRUSh 9 years, 7 months ago

Preflop and flop are okay. On the turn U can raise sometimes versus this size, versus some opponents, with some reads, but anyway Your call is fine.

On the river I think without a bacdoor fd blocker U can call and take a note about his play.
I think he does represent some JJ+, some QJ occasionally, and some FD-s (mainly Kxcc, and some others) maybe some 76s, 65s, and Ac5x as a bluff sometimes.

Bradley Chalupski 9 years, 7 months ago

@LuckyMer I think your math is off?

QQ+ = 13 combos /// AQ = 8 remaining combos
So, 21 total combos

An it's not a 1/2 pot bet, it's 3/4. That means V needs ~15 combos of bluffs here for us to make a profitable call.

w/the Kc I don't think we can get V to 15 combos of air, so I think this is a fold.

Will Winaton 9 years, 7 months ago

AA-QQ = 10 combos OTR. We block 3 combos of KK, and 2 combos of QQ.
AQ is called vs a 3bet most of the times so I don't think you can add 100% weight on those.
Effective stack OTR is $17.65.. Villain had more than us.

So you were a bit off in this hand. :D

Will Winaton 9 years, 7 months ago

Also, let's say he has 21 value combos, and bets 3/4 pot. I don't know how you got the 15 bluffcombos.
He would only need (3/4)/(10/4)=30% bluffs for us to be able to make a 0ev call since that would be our potodds(excluding rake).
Which is: 21 / 0.7 - 21 = 9 combos of bluffs.

Limp Limpson 9 years, 7 months ago

river is a fold imo

preflop is marginal...idk, I'd almost rather just 5b/f or just exploitatively overfold vs the 4b. We can call with a lot of stuff with better playability...

Bradley Chalupski 9 years, 7 months ago

Ok, I tried to go through the math again. Please correct anywhere I am wrong.

1) On the River, Hero is getting more or less 3:1 on a call

2) Looking at the top of V's 4-bet range from the BTN (and ignoring weighting AQ for simplicity's sake) we have:

JJ: 3 combos
QQ: 1 combos
KK: 3 combos
AA: 6 combos
AQ: 8 combos

Total: 21 combos

3) If Hero is getting 3:1 on a call, he needs to be good ~25% of the time (1/(3+1) = 1/4 = 25%)

4) This means the 21 combos of Value need to be 75% of V's total range for Hero's call to be breakeven. So, in total, V needs to get here w/7 combos of air: (.75x = 21, so x= 28 total combos - 21 value combos = 7 combos of bluffs)

So the question is, does Villain have 7 combos of bluffs in his range here?

iMRUSh 9 years, 7 months ago

1) On the River, Hero is getting more or less 3:1 on a call

1) He's getting 65,28 : 30,23 to call. like ~2,159 : 1 .

2) U count the combos well.

3) If Hero's getting ~2,159 : 1 to call, he needs to be good ~31,65% of the time.

4) Yes U calculate well just with the wrong number.

If he has 21 value combos and need to bluff ~31,65%, than need ~9,7 combos bluff.

So yes the question is, does Villain bet ~10 combos bluff on the river (rather that he bet it like this, than he has it)

Bradley Chalupski 9 years, 7 months ago

Thank you everyone for the great responses!

@iMRUSh:
Here is what I'm doing:

Hero starts the hand w/$35.05

He puts in:
- $5.10 pre
- $4.30 Flop
- $8 turn

Hero has 17.65 behind on the River.

The Pot on the River starts at $35.05, + the $17.65 Hero has behind to call V's AI, means that Hero is calling $17.65 to win ($35.05 + Villains $17.65) = 52.70

$17.65 to win $52.70 is ~ 3:1

Is this incorrect?

iMRUSh 9 years, 7 months ago

Sorry, my bad I just did't chech out the hand attentivelly, and miss the effective stacsizes.

Your calc is the correct one.

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