NL200 Combodraw in 3BP OOP vs flop raise and turn overbet

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NL200 Combodraw in 3BP OOP vs flop raise and turn overbet

Blinds: $1.00/$2.00 (6 Players) MP: $606.68
CO: $113.98
BN: $500.92
SB: $218.76 (Hero)
BB: $92.95
UTG: $272.03
Preflop ($3.00) Hero is SB with J K
3 folds, BN raises to $5.00, Hero raises to $17.00, BB folds, BN calls $12.00
Flop ($36.00) 5 9 T
Hero bets $11.28, BN raises to $39.66, Hero calls $28.38
Turn ($115.32) 5 9 T A
Hero checks, BN bets $444.26 and is all in, Hero calls $162.10 and is all in
River ($721.68) 5 9 T A 8
Final Pot BN wins and shows two pairs, Tens and Nines.
SB wins and shows a flush, King high.
SB wins $436.52 BN wins $0.00
Rake is $3.00

I called turn because I thought Axcc is very unlikely after the overbet shove, except maybe A9cc sometimes. I guess if I should call or fold depends on how often he has dominated draws vs 2p+. I think he has Q8cc 87cc 86cc 76cc often enough to justify a call because it's mostly T9s I'm worried about, sets often just call and AT/A9 is very unlikely. I also still have 25% equity vs 2p+.

Would you do anything differently?

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Corgi 5 years, 11 months ago

Pio prefers a larger flop sizing when given 70% or 33% options. My guess why - If you bet small, you're trying to make EV by getting a fold from something that is correct to defend vs that size. ie You're looking for overfolds. Obviously not with this exact hand, but range.

With a 70% flop sizing, IP is raising 17% (sets, two pair, overcards+backdoors)
Then OOP shoves with most overpairs (actually folds some), sets, the nut draws, combo draws.

With a forced 33% flop sizing, IP raises a third of the time, which is overpairs (gave IP 20% QQ+), sets, combodraws, some overcards+gutshot.
Then OOP 3bet shoves the hands you'd expect, but that includes the combodraws.

Resolve 5 years, 11 months ago

Thanks, that's interesting. Too hard to implement mixed flop strats for me though. Flop 3bet didnt seem like a good idea because his calling range to it has Axcc draws that dominate me and I make all potential low equity bluffs fold.

Corgi 5 years, 11 months ago

I don't think I said anything about playing a mixed strategy with anything. I just meant that I gave PIO lots of options, and it prefers using the largest sizing here. So I think you should only have one flop sizing, and it should be all larger on this texture in a 3bet pot.

But at any sizing, PIO wants to 3bet shove over a flop raise. Sure they'll have some flush draws maybe, but that's not really your concern. Most of the raising range aren't dominating draws, and you should be happy to get in this many outs if your villain is raising lone Tx.

Jeff_ 5 years, 11 months ago

At first glance looks you have to fold there, you aren't having 37% equity there. But I've been looking equilab and there is not much FD/2 pairs/Sets available to play this way so if he start using some kind of QJ,78no draw, or KJ as this play at some frequency calling seems alright. But it is only breakeven play vs certain strategy, vs tight strategy it is losing.

BigFiszh 5 years, 11 months ago

This hand is absolutely unqualified to be discussed w/o any reads. Unless you are 105% sure about Villain's range this is pure gambling and from an EV-point-of-view in most cases losing, almost never profitable.

Resolve 5 years, 11 months ago

Equity Win Tie
BU 61.82% 61.82% 0.00% TT-99, 55, T9s, Qc8c, 8c7c, 8c6c, 7c6c
SB 38.18% 38.18% 0.00% KcJc

Worst case scenario, if he plays ALL 2p+ like this every time and never bluffs worse than a combo-draw.

Flop 3bet didnt seem like a good idea because his calling range to it has Axcc draws that dominate me and I make all potential low equity bluffs fold.

BigFiszh 5 years, 11 months ago

You can never be 100% sure about an oponent's range, ...

Glad, you didn't point out that 105% is not possible as well. ^^

Your range seems a bit stretchy to me and even in that case your EV is +$5. Take away Q8cc and it drops to -$10. Now get it? I disagree with "worst case scenario", what would be a better-for-you-range that you'd expect to play that way w/o pure guessing game - where it could be as well sets-only with the same probability?!

That said, again, w/o any reads, a tight range is as likely as a weak range. Even against a reasonable weak range you're marginally winning. You'd need a super-weak range to confidently call. And seriously, besides the attempt to argue a mistake - do you really expect an unknown player in NL200 to raise flop, shove turn with crap?

Here's the deal: I see any combo of 55, 99, T9s playing that way (once we witness what Villain is doing), pretty close to 100%. I definitely don't expect any combodraw to play that way in 100%. Maybe 75%, or even 50%, perhaps even lower. Any additional bluff / combo even lower again. Eventually it just doesn't sum up for the necessary EQ - to be break-even, let alone to win enough to compensate for the error margin in case you're wrong.

That's why I said it would be gambling, even though the discussion is still fruitful. :)

BigFiszh

Resolve 5 years, 11 months ago

My worst case scenario has him playing all of his value like this (11 combo's) and only 4 bluffs, which also happen to have very high equity. I don't think that's too optimistic.

I get your point that it could be even worse (he only has value) but I don't think it's right to just assume that in this situation (flop raise and turn shove on wet board in 3bp btn vs sb). I don't think it's a situation that is severely underbluffed by default.

I think we can agree that it's a close and very villain dependant high variance spot. I posted it to get different opinions and I got what I wanted, so thanks :)

Qing Yang 5 years, 11 months ago

I think this hand is a good example of why we want to 3bet bigger OOP. If you had made it 20-25, the stack to pot ratio would be around 4, and this particular combo just becomes an easy 3bet jam on the flop.

Another advantage of lowering the SPR is the option of playing a two street game. On a wet board like this, many hands in our range benefit from shoving the turn. Difficult to do when the SPR is 6, but if we 3bet bigger and cbet bigger, it allows us to more profitably shove some hands that don't really want to see a river.

Corgi 5 years, 11 months ago

This guy's video on SPR is what got me the tree I referenced earlier. I ran a few different boards at different bet sizes and stack sizes just to see flop check/raise frequencies. It's funny, I didn't even notice that the 3bet size was only 3.5x, but that makes so much sense.

TGMezza 5 years, 11 months ago

I think you should 3B the flop here with all the combo draws and probably also the pair + flush draws if you CB them as well which I like to do although they do make good check backs as well when we're OOP and want to balance our checking range. You just aren't getting the odds on the turn to call and are going to face a barrel here a very high percentage of the time leaving you folding to dominated flush draws. Yes you called here and it worked out but you put in 162 to win 274 so you needed 37% equity and I don't think you have that because even if we assume this guy is check raising and then shoving all of his draws here you still only have 35%

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 11 months ago

1) 3 bet larger preflop to around 10-12bb to discourage button from making light calls IP.
2) Flop is a wet texture, which advocates for a polarized range / sizing to be used and possibly even over betting some hands.
3) vs a flop raise I would just be 3 betting and getting it in at this stack depth.
4) as played I think turn is a fold and it's optimistic to think villain is calling your 3 bet wide with hands like Q8s given him very few bluff combos. If he has something like Ac4c, you are drawing to only 3 outs.

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