Nl 100 AQo,call 5bet 100 deep, well played?

Posted by

Posted by posted in Low Stakes

Nl 100 AQo,call 5bet 100 deep, well played?

CO: $97
BN: $101.50
SB: $102
BB: $194.85
UTG: $198.45
HJ: $152.87 (Hero)
Btn : reg 24/19 on 220 hands
3bet 8%, 21% btn (19),
4bet 0%(7)
can call AKo oop,

i m working on my preflop stats and it seems i fold too much to 4bet (here its a 5bet but just to say im more ready than usual to stak off)
Preflop ($1.50) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt A Q
Hero raises to $3.50, CO folds, BN raises to $11, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero raises to $20.50, BN raises to $90.50
i dont know what else to do preflop,
he 3bets a lot i cant fold
i got an offsuit hand oop if i call and no solid read vs him (onlu 220 hands played) so i cant call
AQ seems too strong to 4bet bluff so i have to call

thanks for nl100+ regs to tell me if its a standard call

have a nice day

20 Comments

Loading 20 Comments...

vanity02 12 years, 1 month ago
I think AQ would be a hand I put into my 4bet bluff range. Just because he has a wide 3bet otb does not mean his 5bet range is wide. I think it's rare for people at 100nl to call a 5 bet with AQ we are dominated by his entire value range. If it was blind vs btn where people are capable of jamming as wide as 88+ it may be justifiable to hero call, but probably better to call otb with position.
thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
thanks interesting,i will try to do maht but i dont think we can 4bet fold AQ
interested with other opinons
have a nice day
thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
let say he only 5 bets QQ+ AK
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.533% 73.18% 01.35% 481174224 8900472.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 25.467% 24.11% 01.35% 158549568 8900472.00 { AQs, AQo }

when we win we win 200$
whn we lose we lose 79.5

ev=24.5%*200-74.5%*79.5
= 49 - 59
= -10

we can actually 4bet fold, and even if i did a normal 3bet oop to 25
ev=49-74.5%*75
= -6.8

BUT he can do it with wider 5bet range
Ev=E*200-(1-E)*79.5
= 200E-79.5+79.5E
= 279.5E-79.5
we want ev to be>0
so we want E>79.5/279.5=28.44%

vs QQ+AK we have 25%
BUT vs JJ+AK we have 29%

i really thnink math wise we cant 4bet fold

thanks for your opinion and checking my maths

have a nice day
Aleksandra ZenFish 12 years, 1 month ago
but first maths shows minus 10 totals, and encluding JJ in stack off range is opponent dependable, in general you are doing slightly bellow EV~ is easier jus fold 20 and~ continues play of aq versus 5 bet will bring you various opponents most not having JJ in stack of range but flat range..so u may reconcider
event78 12 years, 1 month ago
So construct your range correctly to 5bet enough. AK QQ for 6%, AK JJ for 6.5%, AKo AQs TT for 8.5%, AQ TT for 10.5% (you can flat some 4bet IP as well).
event78 12 years, 1 month ago
Shove AK QQ for a 6% 3bet range , shove AK JJ for a 6.5% 3bet range, shove AKo AQs TT for a 8.5% 3bet range, shove AQ TT for a 10.5% 3bet range (you can flat some 4bet IP as well).

I don't know if you meant that you fold to much to 4bet deep.
thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
thanks i did some math for preflop range,i just put AXs more than PP since i prefer flat PP than 3bet. Thanks for your advice, (i will make a specific theory post to see if my 5bet range is good
have a nice day
R0b5ter 12 years, 1 month ago
First, I don't like your 4 bet sizing. In these positions you have to make a bigger 4 bet since you want to get folds when you are 4bet bluffing, When you just make it $20.5 the BT has to call $9.5 in a pot of $36.5 giving him ridiculous odds and he will call with almost his whole range even his bluffs. If you are IP it's a different story.

Second, I think you are over analyzing this situation. Your options are to fold vs his 3 bet, to call his 3 bet, 4 bet and get it in and 4 bet bluff. I think 4 bet bluffing is your worst option. As played I'd just jam and take a note to what he had and remember that you now have history and he knows you 4 bet jam in HJ vs BT with AQo.

Third, In your math I'm not sure where you get "if we lose we lose 79.5" from? If we jam and lose we lose 101.5.

All in all it's very marginal getting it in here preflop. So the standard is probably just folding. But with that said there's nothing wrong in 4 bet/getting it in vs a reg you are starting to develop history with. Even if it's slightly minus EV it may be +EV in the future since he will bully you less.
thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
hi rob5ter
i dont like my betsizer either it s HH conversion bug i made it to 24 (hh tels raise to when it is raise of...)
i never 4bet jam so to be balanced (he s a reg) i dont see why i should + it can let him bluff 5bet

im not very good at poker math...the pot does not belong to us so i got only 79.5 to push, the ev only see this amount doesnt it? can you show me how you would do this math?
thanks have a nice day
R0b5ter 12 years, 1 month ago
Sorry I didn't mean 4 bet jamming I meant 4bet and then jam over his 5 bet (or call his 5 bet shove).

The math.. I misread your math. Thought it was math from hand as a whole not isolated to after the 5 bet.

Thing is I think from the first range you give him (QQ+, AK) that a 4 bet is bad vs a player with that range. Even if it's a 4bet bluff or a 4 bet looking to get it in. Vs a player with that range I prefer to just fold vs his 3 bet. Problem is of course to determine his range in this specific case and since he seems fairly agressive and has a high 3bet% on the bt I would assume this will propagate into his 5bet range as well and he will have a wider range. Of course this is not guranteed just like poster above said since some players will have very wide 3 bet ranges but extremely narrow 5 bet ranges. But all in all I think once you make the decission to 4 bet this particular player here you must take a stance and shove it in. Very important to take notes on his range and what your perceived range is for future battles.
wuwei 12 years, 1 month ago
You said you don't want to fold too much vs aggression preflop. The key is adjusting your open raising range. Assuming normal sizing you have to defend about ~35% against 3bets and ~55% against 5bet shoves. When you don't call 3bets oop (which is ok, I think) you have to 4bet/broke about 35%*55%=19% of your open raising range. In the posted hand we need ~38% equity (standard). We don't have that against a normal 5bet range in these positions (35% vs JJ+,AK,AQs,A5s,A4s). So we have to employ a tighter 4bet/broke range. Say, we want to 4bet/broke JJ+,AK (3%) from HJ. Then we should open about 3%/19%=16% from HJ. If we want to open more, we have to call some 3bets.
R0b5ter 12 years, 1 month ago
Very interesting. How does the math change if we are calling 3 bets some of the time as well? Then we get an additional variable. Also the numbers we are defending 35% vs 3bet and 55% vs 5 bet where are they taken from? How are those numbers in another position, like the button for example?
wuwei 12 years, 1 month ago
The idea is that there is a threshold at which our oponent autoprifits with his 3bets and we don't want to allow him to do that. For example, if i raise 3bb from CO and get 3bet to 9bb from BU, then BU risks 9bb to win 13.5bb (= our raise+bilinds+his 3bet). If we fold with frequency p he wins p*13.5bb on average. Now we solve the equation p*13.5 = 90 and see that if we fold with frequency 0.67 (i.e. 67%) our opponent makes immediate profit. So, facing an aggressive 3bettor we should defend at least 33% of the time by calling or 4betting. If we 4bet more, we can call less and vice versa. The frequencies only depend on the size of the pot and the size of the bets. They do not depend on position.
thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
mmm really interesting i did maht n 3/5bet so i took in account vilain openning range but i did not yet do math on 4bet / call shove range taken my opening range
thanks very much i will work on it

Be the first to add a comment

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy