Must I Really 4-Bet?...
Posted by SikBluffBruh
Posted by
SikBluffBruh
posted in
Low Stakes
Must I Really 4-Bet?...
Not to be too results oriented but can I just call the 3 bet and play a pot postflop with position.
My problem is my 4 bet pretty much commits me and everyone at table is abc solid/super tight.
Calling would allow me to keep hands I beat in pot and have them maybe make mistakes while pot controlling if I miss or make and need too.
Opp is going to call atleast one street anyway with most of his range he calls my 4bet with so long as no scare card flops (ace/king)
((VERY little flop cbet fold equity))
6 max $.05/.10
BB $12.87
UTG $8.46
HJ $16.03
CO $37.15
HERO $10.65
SB $10.38
SB posts $0.05
BB big blind $0.10
HOLE CARDS
HERO As Ks
UTG folds
HJ folds
CO folds
HERO raises to $0.30
SB 3-bets to $1.20
BB folds
HERO 4-bets to $3.00
SB calls $1.80
FLOP Kh 9h Tc Pot $5.80
SB checks
HERO bets $4.00
SB raises to $7.38 and is all-in
Hero calls $3.38
TURN Kh 9h Tc 6h
RIVER Kh 9h Tc 6h 5c
SHOW DOWN
HERO shows As Ks a pair of Kings Ks Kh As Tc 9h
SB shows Ad Ac a pair of Aces Ad Ac Kh Tc 9h & collected $19.82 from main pot
Loading 13 Comments...
Without any information on Villain, I can only give general advice. Even if you don't have any specific information on Villain, what kind of 3bet% is there in your pool in a SB vs BTN scenario?
You cannot get away from AKs vs AA in a BTN vs SB situation on a K-high flop. I would bet smaller on flop, but the rest looks fine.
You should, instead, think about your range. Against extremely tight 3bettors, you want to call implied odds hands in position (mainly pocket pairs, some good suited connectors, some good suited Aces). You'll be up against an overpair more often, and if you flop a set/two pair you can get paid pretty easily.
Yea I wasnt worried too much about postlfop... Cooler/have to pay it off when he slowplays it & I hit with the pot this big.
My concern is preflop. Against this particular opp I already dislike 4 betting, and I really Hate it if im 5 bet'd all in.....when I can simply just call and play in position,keeping opponents range a a lot wider/ allowing him to maybe make a mistake while also pot controlling if I need to.
It's hard to say anything without information. What's his 3bet%? What is his fold to 4bet? What is his WWSF/WTSD/WSD?
In general, you should be fine getting it all in preflop with AKs with 100BB stacks, no matter who your opponent is.
First hand Iseen him 3 betting in idk probably 50-100 hands I had seen while at table. Hadnt seen him fold to a 4bet bc there wasnt any going on either at the table.
His range for everything probably looks very similar to snowie, possibly even tighter
"In general, you should be fine getting it all in preflop with AKs, no matter who your opponent is"
It just seems like the money im making when I 4bet is really coming from fold equity (eg. he 3bets, I 4bet,he folds) ..The problem is it just seems his 3 bet range is just to tight for that math to happen.
Ok, let's look at some simple math.
First, assume that his 3bet range is very tight: something like TT+, AK, AQ; and he never folds to 4bet.
If you get it all in pre, you're about 50-50 against his range. So, with the dead money in the middle (blinds, your bet, his 3bet, your 4bet), you're always going to make more money if you get it all-in preflop than you fold.
The play remains profitable for you if he folds some hands from his 3bet range: say if he only stacks off with AK, QQ+. I am not doing the math here, but you can count the combos and calculate your equity in either case (if he folds or if he jams).
Postflop play is more complicated, but not really that much. Let's look at the case where you just flat AKs instead of 4betting. You do dominate AQ. But keep in mind AQ is the weakest hand in Villain's range, so a very tight Villain will bluff fairly often with it. You'll not be able to call more than one bet on many flops and turns, so you'll often get bluffed off the best hand. Or he's going to just check/fold and you don't make any money from a hand that you dominate.
Instead, if he has something like TT and an Ace comes on the flop, you're not going to get much money out of him.
Bottom line: getting it all-in with AKs is fine, even against a very tight player.
Though Belrio41 I may not make much money with it postflop with the good examples you show...It would still be better obviously then losing money if preflop shoving is costing me no
The problem I still see with preflop is your examples sounds more like minimizing* loss by getting it all in vs actually profiting
There's no difference between minimizing loss and maximizing profit (assuming it's a heads-up scenario and assuming no rake). The rake makes a little bit of difference, but this situation isn't close enough for it to matter.
No, maybe I dindt explain myself well.
What I meant by minimizing loss is I might for example have a average ev/stack size of $7.00 if I fold to his 5 bet vs calling it and then having say $8.00 average ev/stack.
So I understand your point there.
But thats still not profit when I had $10.00 at the start of the hand
Where as if I just call the 3-bet and play a hand as big as ak in pos against a super tight abc player I might end up with a average ev/stack size of $10/$10+
No?
AKs is fine 4bet btn v sb vs Pretty much any playertype. UL
Where is the money coming from then in this situation against this solid of a super tight player?
Not asking for the specific math, just a simple claim.
Do you have some stats on your opponent or are you just assuming that he is tight?
I think you can start calling AK if your opponent is 3betting <5% or something. Againts something like 7-8%+, not 4betting starts to lose decent amount of value and protection.
No exact stats if you mean hud. I never understood why ppl like them when you obviously cant use them live. Its like building a foundation around mud instead of concrete.
However, It was pretty obvious he was pretty abc solid super tight. Also...
Had been at table about 45 min and he hadnt 3 bet yet.
Appreciate that stat
SikBluffBruh You greatly misunderstand HUDs if you're making that statement about mud vs concrete. If you want to build a solid foundation, HUDs can only help. Having the info on villain and all of the extremely detailed stats that let you analyze your game is absolutely critical to improvement today.
Play one site without HUDs and another with them. That's really the best approach to improvement in this regard, IMO.
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