Moving Up
Posted by Carlo Moretto
Posted by
Carlo Moretto
posted in
Low Stakes
Moving Up
Hey guys,
I have recently got back into poker with the goal of starting at the micros and building a bankroll and moving up when ever I have 50BI. The problem I have is never having the confidence to actually move up, and always dropping back as soon as I lose 3-4 BI. How do you overcome this?
Although Im only playing NL2, I have been studying pretty hard and feel like I should be at NL5 at least. Do you think I should move up and take a 10BI shot at NL5?
Here is my graph so far
Thanks
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You can definitely move up with those results. The difference between NL2 and NL5 is not very big, whatever you did to achieve your results at NL2 will most definitely work at NL5!
Depending upon the site, they don't do anything any different @ 10nl or 20nl, either. Swings are just larger, of course and you have to put in an absolutely soul shattering amount of volume to profit consistently. The majority of the players I'm playing against at 20nl on one site are absolutely horrific compared to the 2nl and 5nl players on another. This is all about bankroll and volume once you reach a certain level of proficiency.
To expand upon what I'm saying here: It seems that bluffs should come about naturally, and solvers confirm this. These spots develop over the course of a hand. Some of you seem to take a hand preflop and decide "this is a good spot to bluff" and begin to construct the entire hand around that objective. There will be spots where you miss and villain shows weakness where it's obvious that you can lay down a bet of a certain size and get him to fold out his equity. They come about naturally, during game flow.
I appreciate your dedication to a steady grind, however I think the times where one just deposits 50$ to any given site and then just grinds up through the stakes are pretty much over - at least this approach became highly inefficient in the high rake environments in which we currently play. At NL2, edges are still large and it may well be possible to just grind our the roll for NL5. As you move a little higher, edges and winrates decrease and are eaten up by rake.
I think the best approach today was very nicely lined out by JNandez in a youtube video of his ("Should you become a Professional Poker Player in 2020?"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmQmWFB0auA. Not that the goal needs to be becoming a professional player, but he very nicely lines out that when moving through the limits, some investments are needed in today's environments.
E.g. I would play 20k-30k hands on NL5 and see if you beat it based on your winrate. If you do (no matter how large it is), move to NL10 and play 20k-30k there. If you are lacking the roll for your 50BI rule, then just invest and deposit again. If you beat NL10, move to NL25 and so on.. Always keep in mind that depending on the site, you are paying 10BB-13BB/100 of your winrate as rake. This puts a serious challenge to the goal of moving outside of the micros just by grinding and leaves many players unrightfully discouraged on their journey.
I like the above post, only thing I would add, your bankroll isn't limited to what you have in the account. Don't be foolish but if you can budget 100 a week to deposit and not miss you can take more aggressive shots. Bankroll rules are set up more as a guidelines for professional players who if they go broke have no means to make money. your playing 2NL this can't be your case. Come up with rules be aggressive and stick to them.
I'd be way more aggressive then 50buy ins. I'd also play tournaments more then cash, pools are way softer and rewards are bigger and you can hit big and rake is more reasonable.
You overcome it by simply setting a stop loss , lets say you take a shot and once you are down 10 BI, you move back down and grind it back again. This will help you realize that you have the ability to recover and be less afraid of losing. Your win rate is EXTREMELY good and you should be moving up way more aggressively. Most people do 20-25 bi bankroll management.
Thanks for the advice guys. Youre right about the BR, I can afford to deposit a $100/week but have chosen not to as I felt that I wanted to put in volume and learn whilst building a BR.
I tend to find I played scared when moving up and Im more worried about how my bb/100 will look rather than making the right plays!!
Going to give NL5 a go and set a 10BI stop loss, but if im still doing well then I will move up more aggresively.
Thanks for your time and advice.
My winrate is not as good as yours and 20 BI is sufficient. Just play exactly like you do at 2nl at 5nl and you will be fine. There is absolutely no difference in the stakes, just put in the volume and grind it out.
Just out of interest what is considered a good win rate at NL2? I 4 table zoom currently.
Also is it normal to go on a stretch of 10k hands break even?
2-4bb, and yes 10k breakeven is normal
I play NL25, I'm in a middle of 90k hands BE stretch, while I always have 5BB/100 winrate.
Yeah not a lot, but I'm not that good, also rake is a huge factor.
At NL2 rake is even heavier but the player are even worse.
What website do you play at btw? There is a good chance your playing in a super high rake trap stake, in which case your winrate is godly and you are a high stakes crusher. 2nl and 25nl don't play that much differently so if you have a $500 bankroll you can easily beat 25nl with your winrate.
Focus on your process and grind out more volume at lower stakes and move up with more BIs for the next limit...focus on maximizing winrate at your current stakes in the mean time...also, a lot of players deal with a transition to higher stakes and overcoming that initial doubt of competing at a stake, once you get in some volume and can assess the regs you'll eventually become more comfortable if you can identify mistakes being made by the pool and you become accustomed to the increase in monetary swings...then it's just a matter of trying to fade the run bad and grind out volume and eventually you will stick at a higher limit and the process repeats itself for the next limit
I play on Stars at the moment. Tried a few of the others but really like stars software
PokerStars Zoom Hand #223103542104: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2021/01/27 13:13:46 WET [2021/01/27 8:13:46 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Artemei86 ($1.48 in chips)
Seat 2: BronjaN ($2.23 in chips)
Seat 3: typokdog ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: bleudesoleil ($1.13 in chips)
Seat 5: Aehonovashka ($4.69 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($6.42 in chips)
BronjaN: posts small blind $0.01
typokdog: posts big blind $0.02
* HOLE CARDS
Dealt to Hero [Ad Kh]
bleudesoleil: folds
Aehonovashka: raises $0.04 to $0.06
Hero: raises $0.12 to $0.18
Artemei86: folds
BronjaN: folds
typokdog: folds
Aehonovashka: calls $0.12
FLOP [Jd Th Qs]
Aehonovashka: checks
Hero: bets $0.57
Aehonovashka: calls $0.57
TURN [Jd Th Qs] [8c]
Aehonovashka: checks
Hero: bets $2.22
Aehonovashka: raises $1.72 to $3.94 and is all-in
Hero: calls $1.72
RIVER [Jd Th Qs 8c] [2d]
SHOW DOWN
Aehonovashka: shows [Tc Td] (three of a kind, Tens)
Hero: shows [Ad Kh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
Hero collected $9.11 from pot
SUMMARY *
Total pot $9.41 | Rake $0.30
Board [Jd Th Qs 8c 2d]
Seat 1: Artemei86 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: BronjaN (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: typokdog (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: bleudesoleil folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Aehonovashka showed [Tc Td] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 6: Hero showed [Ad Kh] and won ($9.11) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Do you think overbetting flop and turn is ok here? On that flop I figured he had either hit it really hard or not at all. Sometimes think I miss out on value when making overbets like this (I shouldve made 3bet bigger pre too)
With those stack sizes I prefer a 33% bet OTF, big bet OTT (70%-100%), and overbet jam OTR.
I dont like overbetting because we will fold some hands that will still call 2 streets if we bet smaller
Explotively speaking: overbetting with the nuts will be the bread and butter to build your bankroll in the micros.
From a GTO perspective this is not an overbet spot OTF/OTT as villain is not totally capped. Sure, he doesnt have AK in theory, but he has at least 2 sets and some 9x OTT.
And from point of rangeconstruction: We want to bet a lot of stuff OTF. So if we want to bet any TP or weaker 2p, its hard to have a balanced range here with overbets.
We might maybe choose beside rangecheck or overbet OTT....But i guess i still want to be able to bet my 2p/sets here for smaller sizings
So basically this flop should never be an overbet with any part of our range? I have been studying GTO but have found some of what I have learned doesnt really work at the micros!!
I have watched quite a few of Henry Listers videos and Im sure he said playing exploitatively at the micros / lower stakes is probably still best.
Gave this a second thought and have to correct myself here.
Therefore we want to push a rangeadvantage on a lot of boards, overbets are less a thing when it comes to flopcbets.
But once we get called, the range of villain condenses (ie it gets stronger in relation to ours). So we will bet later streets more selective and overbets become an option.
Rule of thumb could be: if villain is unlikely to have the nuts and turn didnt change this, we have a good spot for overbets.
And so this is the case here. Having a range for overbets doesnt mean we cant bet smaller with other parts of our range.
That was just false what i wrote and overbetging AK is definitely a good play here!
PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: 100 BB
SB: 94.5 BB
BB: 101 BB
UTG: 111 BB
MP: 111.5 BB
Hero (CO): 202.5 BB
SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB
Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ah Th
fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB
Flop : (7.5 BB, 3 players) Jh 7h Qh
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 4.5 BB, SB calls 4.5 BB, fold
Turn : (16.5 BB, 2 players) 8s
SB checks, Hero bets 13 BB
would this have been a better spot to overbet? My standard cbet is 33% but on draw heavy boards I bet larger (with bluffs too)
It really depends if SB is a fish or not. I dont think I like overbeting here with the Ah and I dont think overbeting turn is a thing here, might be wrong. But if you feel like you can explo the pool by overbeting, just do it. I wouldnt overbet, because a lot of hands from his range would have to fold and I wanna keep some weak tp, strong 2nd pairs still in the pot. If he has a flush you will stack him no matter what.
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