Low pocket pairs from UTG (6max)added

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Low pocket pairs from UTG (6max)added

Hi, was just wondering about how others felt about this.
It feels like in today's state of game raising with low pockets mainly 22-66 have reverse implied odds when you flop your set. Running through my database today I found that every time I hit a set with these cards I failed to stack my opponents, yet I have been stacked numerous times. Granted over my sample I was still profiting from this since I would still be able to get 2-3 streets of value. I was thinking about cutting them out of my game pre-flop, since they are so hard to play in general especially utg. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

27 Comments

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eq.fest 12 years, 3 months ago
I dont mind the idea of folding 22-44 UTG however if you can get away with at least breaking even with those hands UTG then keep them in your pfr range.
doudade 12 years, 3 months ago
Hey, as eg.fest says
you may try to steal the pot preflop if you play tight, once in a while but with more agresive player after you fold is good choice.
vanity02 12 years, 3 months ago
Well I still raise with fish in the blinds, just because I'm ip and I have a better chance of getting 2streets+. But overall what I'm saying is that when stacks get in its set over set and I'm generally behind.
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
yep great factor to open them utg are players behind
if they are good agro regs (pre and or post) i would fold
if there are bad passif calling stations guy (specially in blindes) i will open allways
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
mmm suprising and intersting
for 33-66 from utg
over 12 months of nl100 only 245 times and -4.5 BB/100 (ev)
22 +44.66 BB/100 (ev)
33 -14.48 BB/100 (ev)
44 -122.34 BB/100 (ev)
55 -80379 BB/100 (ev)
66 +41.91 BB/100 (ev)

i believe even over a year of grind we cant have enough hands to know, 245 is not enough
would be glad to have a coach opinion
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
don"t know what to do with these stats because over a year of grind (around 30k hands/month) i only have 400 hands button when i open raise and its -19BB/100.....i cant imagine open btn with 33-66 when unopened can be ev- (im a wining player)
so don't know how to verifiy assumptions given the fact that one year is not enough hands
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
overal winrate over last year 1.9 ev BB/100, 3.8 ev bb/100 over160k hands, just to say that i m winning and as said stats are not relevant when i see that 33-66 are losing hands when unopened and we are btn
imSiankO 12 years, 3 months ago
are you always folding these hands / always setmining these hands, vs 3Bets from the blinds when you open them on the button? Theres definitely too many variables to count over a small sample, but if you're never setmining them or setmining them too often in 3BPots, it could be the reason why you're down so much with those small PPs.
vanity02 12 years, 3 months ago
I think set mining from the button vs people that have a tight 3bet range stands to be profitable, especially against recs. But against people with a balance 3bet range, its more neutral but still profitable.
doudade 12 years, 3 months ago
Hey Sean,
the value of that hands is low . you should raise sometimes but if you got reraiser you must fold, maybe a strong raise will scare them. One good way is to fold because the chances for a set is low and if you got reraise you may not hit so you loose, because this hand against all others hasnt good odds . As you say you loose and I loose too with this hands and sometimes they dont even count. You beter fold till 4-5 position that you try to limp.
vanity02 12 years, 3 months ago
I would recommend not limping :), but if you insist on limping with low pocket pairs, be sure you limp with some AA KK QQ JJ as well. If i know you only limp with low pockets I'm going to barrel the hell out of you ;)
Aaron Shadrick 12 years, 3 months ago
I am playing 1/2 NLE at the moment and it can be difficult to make money from UTG with small pp. Especially with the number of loose aggressive players and very bad players that frequent the tables. Many of these players will raise you with any two cards. I do know that they will raise to a much higher amount if it gets limped around to them. I have been basically min raising ($7) from the first 2-3 positions. Even If I get raised to $25 I know there will be multiple callers plus any dead money in the pot to help make up for the implied odds. I know 10:1 is about what you need to make profitable. For the most part you will be able to stack someone with a big hand. Even without the big hand you can generally get paid by 2 or more people for the flop and the turn. Even if they fold the river you can almost get the 10:1 thru multiple players on the first 2 bets. This has just been my experience live on a 1/2 table.

You do run the risk of set over set when playing lower pp but I accept the chance as a part of set mining some of these premium hands.
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
imsiank, true i dont call 3bet with these hands + i dont 4 bet with thelm but stil hard to believe that i lose money over the long run when i open them on btn
reason are
when they 3bet i thnik i dont have odds to setmine (i use this formula : i call if amount to call x 20 < effective stack size.
i dont 4bet them since i believe i cant 4bet call, i will be too much behind a shoving range, and i dont have blochers to i prefer to 4bet fold KQo, Kjo etc
what do nl 200+ players thinks about that
intersting post sean shu
igotya 12 years, 3 months ago
Okay guys.

nl 6m.

First of all folding some small pps from UTG has become somewhat standard nowadays (There are still very good players who dont.) Basically from UTG it'll be very hard to defend vs 3bets and for that reason you want to keep a tight opening range (somewhat around 13-15% I think is perceived as optimum).

So you can choose to fold some lower pps to get your open % down a bit or you can open all pps and then remove e.g. some Axs from your opening range depending on how you wanna construct your range.

If it is a micro stakes game then I would assume that people are calling too much preflop & postflop, hence the value of hitting a set even with a tight opening range is gonna be quite decent. Also the frequency of getting 3b is lower aswell.

At low stakes you will get 3b more frequent, a lot of regs will probably not be bluffcatching enough vs a lot of postflop aggression from a UTG open (because people usually have valueheavy ranges in that spot). Therefore the value of actually hitting a set will vary a lot depending on your opponent & dynamics.

However I do agree that there will occur exploitative opportunities from time to time, e.g. if you expect to get called by some fish (who aren't short), then you can basically just minraise pre (to minimize the lose the times you are 3b or don't hit a set) as long as the regs don't pick up anything.

Also when it comes to postflop, small pps will have quite bad playability and will always be the bottom of your range and is therefore usually a c/f unless you wanna be cbetting your entire range theoretically = 100% cbet.


-igotya
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
do you agree to raise fold vs 3bet on btn? 100 bb deep against someone who 3bets more than QQ+
imSiankO 12 years, 3 months ago
Yes. The question you should always ask yourself with those small/medium PPs is:
does villains range that 3bets me can stand a check/raise on a wet flop ->
if the answer is yes: setmining against them is fine.
if the answer is no then it won't ever be profitable.

That's why against nits that 3bet under 5% if you're on the CO or BTN and they 3bet you from the blinds, its sometimes fine to setmine against them, however OOP you always have to consider the fact that you're going to have to fast play a bit more often your set if you hit it on a wet board.
mike 12 years, 3 months ago
i have always made a profit with opening 22-66 UTG in 6max and i just just check my last 4 months at 100NLH and 200NLH and they are +EV opens for me at these stakes so I can't imagine they are not +EV in micros/low stakes
thedoors 12 years, 3 months ago
mike what is your plan (since you play better than i do because at sames stakes i lose money)
posflop when you misse your set and your CB is called
preflop IP vs a 3bet?
thanks
mike 12 years, 3 months ago
for starters don't CB under pairs too much especially OOP on boards where you rarely win the pot(ie they float or raise you a lot on 569tt)

sometimes i barrel even though i am not a fan of bluffing with 2 outs there can be some spot where it makes sense since you are UTG and rep a strong range preflop

mostly i fold to 3B
thedoors 12 years, 2 months ago
ok thanks that s not the difference since thats what i do
just when do you call 3bet because i never do it, (i only set mine when amoutn to call * 20 < effective stacks and thats never the case in 3bet pots
merry christmas :=)
Apoth 11 years ago

I think the most important factor to consider is how wide the 3betting ranges behind you are. You almost never see a flop with these hands when 3b and cannot 4b with them which means the times you are 3b you are lighting money on fire. 

If you are seeing a decent # of flops and have the ability to play well post flop with them (which actually isn't tough as it probably includes a whole lot of check folding) then I think you can open them.

There are also a lot of really bad implications to having ranges constructed in such a way where you dont hit a set if the board comes low. (Stove some equities of a 15% UTG range -22-66) vs a button calling range on 236r.) Good luck getting to show down ever in that spot.

CombatCarl 11 years ago

I open 22/33/44 there once in a while, 55/66 fairly often or sometimes. It depends on who is on the table.

Polonium210 11 years ago

I play the deep 6 max cash tables, so I play all the pocket pairs because hitting a set becomes very profitable indeed. However, it does still depend on the players in the blinds, behind me etc. Against tight opponents, I'll be opening every single one. If I have position, I might even call a 3 bet from a tight opponent if I have position and I know he doesn't go crazy with AK, AQs. Against crazy players, folding deuces UTG when a nutjob is in the blinds is fine. 

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