Consistently Suspicious Experiences (US Player)
Posted by ModernGrinder
Posted by
ModernGrinder
posted in
Low Stakes
Consistently Suspicious Experiences (US Player)
You know...I have to be honest: Every single time I win 3-4 BI's, there's immediately a beat, a cooler, and then a long period of card death. Nothing hits. Guys 3b'ing 25%+, 4B 20%+, and they always have monsters and there's nothing I can do but sit there. What are you supposed to do when this happens? You can lose 2-3 BI's in a heartbeat just by playing your hands and simply hitting nothing. Obviously, one hand has nothing to do with the next so taking time off from the pool seems to make no sense. Are you forced to just sit there and pour money sometimes? Because the run good absolutely never lasts anywhere near as long as the run bad. As said, 3-4 BI's as normal and then immediately for thousands of hands, there's nothing you can do. What are you supposed to do in a game that aggressive when absolutely nothing hits over thousands of hands?
This is the part of the game that always gets me: Whether by outrageous beats, unbelievable periods of card death, or whatever else have you - whatever you earn seems to just start pouring right back. I never see these winning players who have nice graphs go through these long, drawn out sessions where they can sit there for 6+ hours and nothing hits anything. Are you really supposed to just sit there and lose 2, 3, 4, 5 BI's? That can take tens of thousands of hands to make up.
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Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
Hero (BTN): $12.15
SB: $12.00
BB: $7.86
UTG: $10.00
MP: $18.29
CO: $10.50
SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has As Ah
UTG raises to $0.30, fold, CO raises to $0.90, Hero raises to $2.00, fold, fold, UTG raises to $10.00 and is all-in, CO raises to $10.50 and is all-in, Hero calls $8.50
Flop : ($31.15, 3 players) 8h 5s 5c
Turn : ($31.15, 3 players) 6c
River : ($31.15, 3 players) 9h
Hero shows As Ah (Two Pair, Aces and Fives)
Main Pot [$30.15]: (Pre 66%, Flop 81%, Turn 81%)
Side Pot [$1.00]: (Pre 80%, Flop 89%, Turn 86%)
UTG shows Kc Ks (Two Pair, Kings and Fives)
Main Pot [$30.15]: (Pre 18%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
CO shows 9s 9c (Full House, Nines full of Fives)
Main Pot [$30.15]: (Pre 16%, Flop 10%, Turn 14%)
Side Pot [$1.00]: (Pre 20%, Flop 11%, Turn 14%)
CO wins $29.60
Rake paid $1.31
Now, I have what...about 66% equity pre? I understand that mathematically I'm printing money and winning 2:1 on my money 66% of the time. But still - I lost a stack here. Then, you'll run KK into a shortstack with AA. Then you'll get AA in pre and someone with 55 will spike the 5. Now you're down multiple buyins and you did nothing wrong. What do you do at this point with absolutely no end to losing in sight? Is this really the way the games are supposed to go? Guys go months worth of live hands missing the board? (that's the numerical equivalent to these stretches online). Hundreds of pp's without a set? How can that happen every time you win 3-4 BI's? Seems like a lot of people go through this from what I read on different sites online. What do you do? I was running all over these games for days, taking beats all the time of course but barreling through them and winning enough to keep profiting. Last night, I started playing much looser and more aggressive. Guys folding to 80%+ 3b's, some of them even higher. 90%+. I was running at like 37/30/22 and just printing. Again - any time this has ever happened online and I start winning, beat, cooler, beat, beat, card death that lasts so long I have to just stop playing. Session, after session, after session: Nothing will hit. Playing like 25/22/13. How can that be?
Lastly: Who are all of these players playing 33/31/24 with a 20%+ 4B in a 10z pool on WPN? Why is the entire table full of them on and off? Why are they playing 10nl and why do they CONSTANTLY hit monsters playing that wide? They come in, sit down, and in maybe 50-100 hands they've got 2-3 stacks put away and they're gone. Come back later, repeat. Constantly smashing the board. Me? Any time that winrate starts to creep above 10bb/100, well - see the above. How can that be?
Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: $10.25
Hero (SB): $16.84
BB: $16.16
UTG: $27.20
MP: $14.80
CO: $13.17
Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Ah Ad
fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.28, Hero raises to $1.00, BB raises to $3.38, fold, Hero raises to $7.50, BB calls $4.12
Flop : ($15.28, 2 players) 3h Kc 9d
Hero checks, BB bets $3.82, Hero raises to $7.64, BB raises to $8.66 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.02
Turn : ($32.60, 2 players) Qc
River : ($32.60, 2 players) 6h
Hero shows Ah Ad (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 81%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BB shows 9h 9s (Three of a Kind, Nines)
(Pre 19%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
BB wins $30.97
Rake paid $1.39
This was days ago but with 3-4 of these and worse a day, and then the card death: The best I can do is like 3 bb/100. Creep up near 10? Twilight Zone for thousands of hands with a totally different playing experience.
So, hands like that along with the entire table playing 38/35/29 and - what are you supposed to do? Obviously you can't just sit there losing BI's, right? My blueline continues to go up and the redline is crashing over the last 2k hands because so little hits the board in an aggro game. I love the game at this point and put a ton of work into it but ...as said - this is the part that always gets me about the game. It's just like three steps forward and three steps back no matter what you do.
I'm looking through my database more: The largest amount of money that I lost on a pot today outside of that AA loss above was ~$3.50. In a 10z pool w/ a $12 BI. Result? I lost $50. 5 BI's total in about ~1500 hands. That's how many times I missed the flop and had 80cents here, $1.50 or so here, $2.50 there. Hundreds and hundreds of flops missed. Meanwhile - every player is 33/28/25 with an AF of 4. 5b bluff jamming, etc. Playing 10nl? That all seems quite odd to me. Anyone else ever see a game at that low of a limit with players like that other than on WPN? I see stats, hand histories, the works all the time. I never, ever see any stats like that in any game at any stakes anywhere other than on WPN. How can that be? The best players in the world are all playing micros on WPN? lol
I have improved my understanding of poker math, my mental game has improved, volume is way up, study habits are consistent, environment around me is better than ever and yet - you see the results. If I never studied I'd play half as good and yet the results would still be basically the same. That's how it's always been. Improving just seems to equal more extreme variance that - hook or by crook - makes sure you barely win anything at best. I've begged (begged) for people to show a winning cash game graph from this network on other sites and nobody has ever produced one. Further, if you inquire about this on the two plus two forums - you're insta banned and the posts about it are deleted immediately. Dozens of accounts per week. So, considering that you literally could not work harder at the game than I am currently - I'm a little concerned about where this is going - if anywhere.
With players like that in your pool I guess that high variance sessions are inevitable, but I doubt that every player is 33/28 with 25% 3bet, that sounds pretty ridiculous.
maco Not every player but there are times that 5/6 seats are like that every hand for hours at a clip. Yes, that's the 10z pool on WPN. The entire table is 3b, 4b, 5b'ing each other every other hand like it's 500NL or something. I've had to start constructing 4b and 5b ranges in depth to play there. That's how insane it is. Again: 10z. Not 100z. 10z. Go look for yourself. In hundreds of thousands of hands on there, I've seen one player say something once. Once. All of this put together is a little strange.
I want to keep studying, playing, and working at the game fulltime but with the above experiences the result no matter what I do or how much I improve - where can I possibly go with this? How could anyone tolerate that day in and day out? I want to be able to so ...I'm asking. It's like there are sessions where you're placed on timeout and just aren't allowed to play. They never end, either. Sometimes, I've had to just give up after 3-5k hands of nothingness. How long can someone sit there?
This is not unique to me or anything. I have seen some legitimately good players take such a ridiculous string of beats in succession that I couldn't believe it. There was NOTHING they could do to not lose 5+ BI's immediately. Is this really how poker is supposed to work or does what I'm describing sound a little strange?
I'll ask again here: A winning cash game graph from WPN. Anyone? How can there not be one soul who has one to produce? It's a busy site, tons of players, but none of them ever speak or produce any results?
You're back :)) I kind of suspected after your first post with this new nickname.
Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: $7.85
SB: $12.52
BB: $2.40
UTG: $14.14
MP: $6.99
Hero (CO): $12.00
SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Ac Jd
fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.35, fold, fold, BB calls $0.25
Flop : ($0.75, 2 players) Ks Qh 8d
BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, BB calls $0.60
Turn : ($1.95, 2 players) 6d
BB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BB calls $1.45 and is all-in
River : ($4.85, 2 players) 3h
Players agreed to run it twice.
River #2: ($4.85, 2 players) 9s
BB shows Tc Qc (One Pair, Queens)
Board #1 (Pre 41%, Flop 77%, Turn 86%)
(One Pair, Queens)
Board #2 (Pre 42%, Flop 77%, Turn 86%)
Hero shows Ac Jd (High Card, Ace)
Board #1 (Pre 59%, Flop 23%, Turn 14%)
(High Card, Ace)
Board #2 (Pre 58%, Flop 23%, Turn 14%)
BB wins $2.31
Rake paid $0.16
BB wins $2.30
I could post countless hands even from winning sessions where villain made absolutely insane calls in different spots that were totally unjustifiable. Not wild, out of control players - tight players at 10nl. Calling down triple barrels with bottom pair vs AK ace high UTG vs BB? Really? Pot sized bets called with Ace high on the river. Regularly. 33/28/25. AF of 4. Dozens of them in the pool. None of that even bothers me. I really enjoy playing in tough games now. I'm asking what you're supposed to do when you're in this kind of a game and you're htting about 1 out of every 150 flops. What do you do? SOMEONE out there has to profit from the game at least a little bit and have some advice. Perhaps not anyone in the States but ...someone?
I could post countless hands even from winning sessions where villain made absolutely insane calls in different spots that were totally unjustifiable. Not wild, out of control players - tight players at 10nl. Calling down triple barrels with bottom pair vs AK ace high UTG vs BB? Really? Pot sized bets called with Ace high on the river. Regularly. 33/28/25. AF of 4. Dozens of them in the pool. None of that even bothers me. I really enjoy playing in tough games now. I'm asking what you're supposed to do when you're in this kind of a game and you're htting about 1 out of every 150 flops. What do you do? SOMEONE out there has to profit from the game at least a little bit and have some advice. Perhaps not anyone in the States but ...someone?
Again, I've seen many (many) other discussions about this on other sites and if you do a google search you'll see they're endless. However, if you even ask a question or insinuate in the slightest that the games aren't 100% legitimate - you're banned on twoplustwo. Posts deleted. Ask about why all the players are 33/28/25 but yet playing 10z all day and night: Banned. Posts deleted. I'm sorry but do you guys have any idea how many people stay away from these games today (US) because of this stuff? Nobody seems to care, either. There is nobody to contact, there is no recourse, and there is never an answer as to any of it. One guy who is on the verge of getting banned posted about how he had questions about these things, too and then after contacting WPN directly and inquiring about it - they banned his account. Closed it, confiscated funds. He was outraged, of course and yet on 2p2 all they've done is delete posts of his and threaten to ban him. I really can't stress to anyone reading this how many people absolutely refuse to play online poker because of what I'm talking about here.
WPN has tons of bots on there auto grinding The Beast and yes their network is suspicious. Bots are programed to do some weird stuff so that is probably what you are seeing.
As for the other stuff its mostly in your head. Sounds like your not bluffing in the right spots if you need 1/150 hands to hit for you to be profitable.
???
So for 3 hours straight, literally not one hand you play hits anything on the board except for two all in beats you took. How can you profit? Bluffing in "the right spots"? You honestly think there are that many spots to bluff to overcome never hitting the board and having to just donate multiple stacks off to variance? I'm talking about not even bottom pair. Nothing. Not one 3b hitting anything dozens of times in a row and villain firing away like they have the nuts. Thousands of hands in a row it will happen until every single dime I put together recently is taken back. Everyone complains about this kind of thing. Everyone. It's not just me. It's all over the internet.
Can't work any harder on this than I and some others I've talked to lately but if there's going to just constantly be beats, coolers, and ridiculous runs of card death every singe time you win a few bi's, there's literally nothing you can do to win enough money to ever build a bankroll.
Are you in the States? Do you understand how widespread these complaints are? Further, do you understand how rare it is to find people who put in tons of study and play time? You know how easy 10nl is supposed to be. Why are are all of these 38/35/29's playing 10z on WPN? That makes absolutely no sense. Nobody plays like that at that level. Oh, so they're "just bots". Why do you not understand that this fact makes the online venue nothing but a microstakes training ground for live? You can't play this game for a living online as an American like this. I just saw someone on this very site the other day say they've never been able to beat the micros. Millions of hands of losing. How can someone who studies the game for years honesty believe that's not a little strange?
I'm by no means being unreasonable here. Below 50nl (and sometimes even 100nl) there is very little action running on Global at times. You can't play 20nl for chunks of the day and overnight. Ignition just closed it's doors to NY'ers again. That leaves Betonline and WPN which both are known to have - at the very least - bots. It's a fact. They're everywhere. If you inquire about it on the main support site for these offshore networks (the only one, 2p2) you're deleted/banned. Not me - tons of people. I love playing but I'm just pointing out easily verifiable facts.
And what is anybody on this forum suppose to do about it, and if you are so sure. Why keep playing:D?
bigdickplaya is that you?
Welcome back to the forum BigDickPlaya!
You have to be kidding me....
I play hard in these sessions these days, man. I never, ever punt. I study constantly. I might end up a night feeling terribly frustrated but by the next morning I'm over it. I'm doing absolutely everything someone could do to progress and there's no question I am. These games at times, though are just absolutely outrageous. A lot of Ignition players are coming onto WPN now since they closed their doors to NY'ers and they're all saying the same thing. That they've never seen anything like it.
Now, come on. Don't tell me this is all just a coincidence. You see I'm still here and only doubling down on the game further. WPN is under maintenance for hours today and all of a sudden - finally - you get a popup message saying that you cannot have GTO+ running while also having the WPN software running. It will physically not allow you to take hands with the program open. Then, I see a link here with a whole list of the newly banned software and a whole page dedicated to "game integrity".
I'm absolutely thrilled to see all of this as there's no question game integrity needed an upgrade.
https://www.blackchippoker.eu/poker-customer-support/game-integrity/
With the unbelievably long tanks so common in every zoom pool today, I think it's pretty obvious that collusion + RTA are occurring. Why wouldn't they be? WPN waking up and doing something about it today is fantastic and quite timely. Let's see how it goes.
it is not a coincidence, it is a conspiracy, everyone vs. BDP.
A little revenge here. This was a guy who 4b me a few times last night but over time, I see that he's doing this too often and too light and then not folding to 5b jam enough.
Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com
BTN: $11.35
Hero (SB): $12.00
BB: $12.00
UTG: $6.99
MP: $12.93
CO: $13.08
Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Ad As
fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.25, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, BTN raises to $2.20, Hero raises to $12.00 and is all-in, BTN calls $9.15 and is all-in
Flop : ($22.80, 2 players) Kc 9d Jd
Turn : ($22.80, 2 players) 4s
River : ($22.80, 2 players) 7s
BTN shows Qc Qd (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 18%, Flop 23%, Turn 14%)
Hero shows Ad As (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 77%, Turn 86%)
Hero wins $21.66
Rake paid $0.90
:)))) He had QQ. Standard in btn v sb
lol
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