Live poker adjustments?
Posted by Mike H
Posted by
Mike H
posted in
High Stakes
Live poker adjustments?
Hello,
Used to play online high/midstakes 6max cash. Transitioning to live FR (even 10max) games. Not so accustomed to all these multiway pots. Should we be raising bigger pre, big enough to thin down the field to 1-2 players to put ourselves in a similar situation to online where it's mostly HU / 3way pots postflop?
Anything we should do about this or can we just slowly get used to community pots? It's been a bit rough on me adjusting to these community pots.
What I've summed up so far is in community pots maybe I can't bluff too much because too often someone has something. So hands like overcards with no backdoor straights might just be a check/give up in most scenarios in 3way pot + pots? And our pure air bluffs are basically completely cut out from our cbetting ranges and we should be bluffing more with semi bluffs where we can often two barrel vs people who call and cap their ranges a lot?
Also note, most these games are deep stacked. People usually bring 200bb+ to the table. Some even have 600bb+ but mostly averaging around 200-400bb stacks. I think I'm not playing as optimal as I can given the bigger stacks + better implied odds and all the community pots.
Anyone who successfully transitioned from online to live want to share some experience? Would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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It highly depends on the game you're playing. In general though, raising big to get it HU is a good plan. Your overall goal is to maximize your edge, getting HU is generally the best way to do that. Playing multi-way it's much harder to maximize your edge. There are some clear exceptions though, so it's up to you to judge the players and decide what's best
I have been thinking about this lately. Particularly in time-raked deepstack NL games.
I'm playing with mostly Recs who are not adjusting their ranges much if at all based on sizing between 2-4x. If it is going 3-5 ways to the flop regularly, is it possible 2x will outperform 4x?
A recent Sauce vid where he was playing NL25 he suggested a very tight opening range was best in high rake environments, but as the video went on and he saw how bad his opponents were he came to the conclusion that even with the high rake we might want to see more flops since the mistakes being made would outweigh what we pay in rake.
My opponents are at least playing as bad as those NL25 players and I'm not paying high rake. So since it's often multiway I'm frequently losing the pot as should be expected, but am I really doing myself any favors by making my sizing pre bigger? I'm not thinning the field, and sure the average pot is bigger, but I'm not having any more trouble building pots when it's 4 ways to the flop for 2.5x than I wouldn't if it was 4x.
So since our opponents are making big mistakes postflop should we raise smaller and more often as opposed to bigger and less often?
Would appreciate any insight here on how I could empirically test this.
Still raise bigger pre but with a stronger range. Position is key like Mike says. With position we have way better controle of the hand. Still looking to get is HU or 3 way most of the time tho. Just open 5x 6x whatever if people still call really wide that's good for you esp when you play the stronger range with position.
As someone who puts in a lot of live hours, I don't think small pre flop sizing is the answer. Especially at lower level 2/5 and bad 5-10 games. This will lead to larger fields, when really what we want is short handed pots with the bigger recs in the game. I tend to be about 3.5-4.5x live depending on table dynamic. 2x at most tables will just get 5-7 callers, so doing that we can't actually be opening as wide as we want.
I want to open pretty wide live. One reason this is so profitable is that we can actually down-size our c-bet bluffs (25-35%) because so many players fold too wide to c-bets. The best part is we can still bet larger with value and better draws (for some level of balance), because people just don't make adjustments at all.
Some other notes... We can raise wider because not only do our opponents make massive post flop errors on almost every hand, we also get 3-bet way less than we should. Combine this with the fact that most players aren't making any range adjustments, or honestly even paying attention to what anyone else is doing.
I also think an over-limping range with hands that play well multi-way is ok because raises in multi-limped pots are so rare.
I'm not sure if this is correct. But my thought regarding thinning the field is this.
Since we should be getting to HU to increase our edge we should be raising a larger sizing preflop. Reason being it is harder to have an edge in multiway pots, esp OOP.
So maybe what would be better is to open to a sizing where we can thin the field down to 1-2 opponents from before CO position. And On CO/ BTN where we have position, and we don't mind the blinds calling and at most it will be 3way/4way with us in position. We can go for a smaller size and force bad players to see flops with us.
I think this may be the way to go. Thoughts?
my open size is always same unless I am on the btn. In SSNL, you just rarely play HU pots, unless u iso/open super big, but if u get 3bet (in a 4bet size) you have too fold. so don't worry about if you can get an HU pot or not. Our iso/open aim is:
1. build the pot if we win
2. deny V's equity, even we have AA.
3. let the worse hand/worse player play with us. We still have the edge even it is multiway pots.
E.g. limp limp limp, we got ATo on co we open, call call call, it is fine if we miss, but flop comes Axx or Txx most of the time we are ahead and can get at least one street value from the limpers if they hit, but the pot is much more lager.
When I on BTN I still go to 4bb if more than 200BB EFF or 3bb in 100BB game, in Live SSNL game the recreation player have on idea that how much he need defend or how much he can fold, they only play their card. If they defend 74s and Q8o on SB, it does not make sense if we use 2bb or 2.5bb size like we do when we play online.
open raise as well. Some weaker player may limp-call KQs, ATs, AJo etc and small pp, their acceptable limp call price is inelastic vs Hero‘ size, so why not go bigger？If you are playing a 100BB game, just play tight ABC style, or even play Nit if you have some station players on the table, fold your suited connector or over limp in the later position, cannot raise 67s to 8bb on co vs 3 limpers in a 100BB games, if you get 3bet or limp-raise u have to fold. if they call call call, u can do nothing with your 67s unless you flopped super good.
But IP I still like to open/ iso big with ATo KQo+ 88+, A4s A5s vs 2+ limpers. It is far harder to play these hand in a 4 or 5-way limp pot. You cannot just over-limp then check-fold until you hit, and sometimes you still behind even you hit TPGK, 2P, as this is a limp pot, SB BB has everything, and EP MP limpers may have all the set, and even AAKK (they want to limp-raise but no one open).
Transitioned from 100% online to 90% live a couple of years ago. Main things that come to mind.
I play deep stack 2/5 NL and here are some adjustments I began making after transitioning from online...
Open Raise at least 4-5x and add one bb for every limper.
Cbet a lot less multiway and much smaller. For example I find myself cbetting about 35-40% of the time and much less oop also a lot smaller like 30-40% pot heads up is effective and bigger 70-80% vs multiple opponents with top of your range.
Avoid Isolation 3bets. They Dont work as often as online. Very rarely will a 4b/5b shove for over 100bbs be a reckless bluff. Preflop is pretty straightforward compared to online. (Unless the guy is tilting or drunk)
Use a GTO strategy only against the best players at your casino and just abuse and exploit the weak regs and fish. Avoid ego wars!
Game select effectively around your casino and avoid bad seats or tables vs top players in your casino.
Avoid distractions at all costs and focus intensely on reads and tells. It is amazing how much information people give off with their body language, expressions, and tone. You can make some amazing folds and bluffs in spots where you couldn't see online by picking up on physical reads and table dynamics.
Try to be personable and social in a action table full of fish instead of stoic and silent. You will get more action that way even if your playing tight. You will stick out as a rock if you barely interact with the table. Avoid playing loose though, keep composure and don't let it effect your game.
Being personable and having good customer service is so key. It's a part of the game the regs constantly neglect. Most people (especially the people we want at our game) go to the casino for fun.
Guy loses a big pot? Get his next beer. Talk sports, movies, etc if people are having conversation. Lost a big pot? Be pleasant (this actually helps with tilt also).
For most people, poker is a social game. Be social.
No Limit Hold'em - Beating the Micro Stakes by Thomas Mitchell. Imo, it has solved the problem for loose full ring games and I am happy to have it. It is not going to be any good online and you'r not going to play your late opens and heads up flops the best way, as it doesn't cover them like stuffs like the Janda books (and any videos from Youtube like nanonoko's who plays the old school way somewhat like Mr. Little does) that are enough if you never play these loose games.
Hi!
I play live now for more than 10 years, I started playing 1/2 and now 5/10.
Before I used to play 5 times a week, now it is more recreational!
I would like to comment the very good answer from RuNPuR3.
Open Raise at least 4-5x and add one bb for every limper.
I definitely agree with adding one bb for every limper.
Now for the 4-5x, i think it depends a lot on the table dynamics.
Are they crazy? are they TAG, lots of actions?
If people are crazy, you definitely want to play bigger pot, so raise big seems a good idea. Unless people are 3betting a lot, in that case you should not raise big.
If people are TAG, you should raise 3x not more, their calling range will be stronger.
Cbet a lot less multiway and much smaller. For example I find myself cbetting about 35-40% of the time and much less oop also a lot smaller like 30-40% pot heads up is effective and bigger 70-80% vs multiple opponents with top of your range.
Yes yes and yes!
Avoid Isolation 3bets. They Dont work as often as online. Very rarely will a 4b/5b shove for over 100bbs be a reckless bluff. Preflop is pretty straightforward compared to online. (Unless the guy is tilting or drunk)
I agree, but you can definitely think about your 3bet range.
People don't often 4bet and if they do it's rarely less than AA/KK/AK.
So you can merge your 3bet range with suited connectors, or small suited aces, or what you think should be profitable.
Just try and you will see how it increase your winning rate.
Use a GTO strategy only against the best players at your casino and just abuse and exploit the weak regs and fish. Avoid ego wars!
Yeah especially if you come from online games, beware of tilt!
Game select effectively around your casino and avoid bad seats or tables vs top players in your casino.
Good comment, and think that you can change seat in many casino.
Look at the game, and the reg and ask for a seat change if someone is leaving.
Avoid distractions at all costs and focus intensely on reads and tells. It is amazing how much information people give off with their body language, expressions, and tone. You can make some amazing folds and bluffs in spots where you couldn't see online by picking up on physical reads and table dynamics.
Yes!!!
Try to be personable and social in a action table full of fish instead of stoic and silent. You will get more action that way even if your playing tight. You will stick out as a rock if you barely interact with the table. Avoid playing loose though, keep composure and don't let it effect your game.
Definitely one of the best comment :
-1- if you speak a lot and are open to the other, they will think you are a large player, it is amazing how it changes your image
-2- the bad player : do not critic them, do not try to put them down. Otherwise they will leave the table or change the way the play. There are here to have fun ! give them fun!
-3- the best games are definitely the private ones, you could be invited to this kind of juicy games only if you are nice and open to other players!
Enjoy!
Sorry for my bad english, I am French but played a lot in US.
Have you started playing live in Sydney by any chance?
@eggs : i dont konw if this question if for me or for Mike H.
I started to play live in Paris, then Cannes on the riviera.
Then travel a lot in Morrocco, England, Ireland, Italy, Macau and US.
In US i played in Vegas and commerce casino in LA.
Best Games are in Cannes in France & in italy.
Because the level is bad compared to other places.
3 and half years, 1/1 1/2£, I normally sit down 500£ on 1/1£ and 800£ on 1/2£, 4000 hours.
I would like to comment the very good answer from RuNPuR3/ ATRC.
Open Raise at least 4-5x and add one bb for every limper.
if 3 limpers before me I normally make 8bb, if I am in sb/bb I made to 10-11bb, in 100BB game I play this hand as a 3bet as my open size is too big (also tighter your open range when you are sb/bb, check ATo, KQo on sb/bb if too many limpers).
Cbet a lot less multiway and much smaller. For example I find myself cbetting about 35-40% of the time and much less oop also a lot smaller like 30-40% pot heads up is effective and bigger 70-80% vs multiple opponents with top of your range.
Yes.
Avoid Isolation 3bets. They Don't work as often as online. Very rarely will a 4b/5b shove for over 100bbs be a reckless bluff. Preflop is pretty straightforward compared to online. (Unless the guy is tilting or drunk).
I do not totally agree with this. It depends on the stakes/player type/effectiver stacks/table dynamics. If a nitty player who only has 5% RFI maybe not a good idea to 3bet too light, as they never folding and their range is so strong. If a fish player open and a reg call, or a reg open a fish call, it is not too bad to 3bet and plays HU with fish. But do less 3bet light if it is 100 BB game, as their PFR are so low, they would not fold enough for our 3bet light, cold call open is not too bad and just fold your KQo KJo to passive player's open.
Use a GTO strategy only against the best players at your casino and just abuse and exploit the weak regs and fish. Avoid ego wars!
No ego, No GTO vs fish, always exploitative, always counter. While, if you play a tough game or high stakes will a lot of top players, GTO is the only choice for you. Among all the young, GTO, top players, the one who has less bankroll and bad emotion control definitely have the lowest win rate. I don't play the table that I have to play the optimal strategy for everyone, no fish!!!
Game select effectively around your casino and avoid bad seats or tables vs top players in your casino.
A good customer is the first priority. To become a winning player, U have to beat all the recreation players in the player pool. If u want to improve your win rate, U have to smash most of the bad regulars in the room. If u want to go to higher stakes, U have to be one of the top players in the player pool. But if u always have 3 big customers on your table, u can still have a very high win rate even you just play ABC.
+my personal advice: if you are the top player in the player pool and you also have a solid bankroll (and emotion control), always cover the fish and play deep stacks with them. They made the huge mistakes and they play far soft/over crazy when they are deep. if you are one of the top players, playing deep stacks can maximise your win rate.
Avoid distractions at all costs and focus intensely on reads and tells. It is amazing how much information people give off with their body language, expressions, and tone. You can make some amazing folds and bluffs in spots where you couldn't see online by picking up on physical reads and table dynamics.
Do not play your phones. The solid players always focus on the game. The guy who plays PS or watches poker videos on their phone is bad, inexperienced player. If is too boring listen some music is fine though.
Try to be personable and social in a action table full of fish instead of stoic and silent. You will get more action that way even if your playing tight. You will stick out as a rock if you barely interact with the table.
Entertaining the fish. give them fun!
Avoid playing loose though, keep composure and don't let it effect your game.
Do not play too loose even your are the best player on the table.
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