Live $5/$10 NL: KK Facing 6-Bet Shove Pre $2100 eff
Posted by DegreesOfFreedom
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DegreesOfFreedom
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High Stakes
Live $5/$10 NL: KK Facing 6-Bet Shove Pre $2100 eff
First time I encountered a spot like this. So it's quite rare.
V1, $2100 eff limps in MP1. V1 is a recplayer. Not tight. Spews moderately postflop. Tried to semi-bluff raise me earlier OTF (3-way flop) with a draw. So there's definitely some aggro in him.
V2, older recplayer makes it $30
V3, tight guy, seems solid, possibly a grinder 3bets to $90 in HJ
V4 OTB, solid, generally tight young grinder 4bs to $150 OTB Has about $1600, I have him covered
SB folds. I 5-bet to $450 in BB with KK.
Folds to MP1, who 6-bet shoves $2100 eff.
Folds around to you. You and why?
Also, I'd like to use this as an opportunity to discuss a more general topic of: "when is folding KK preflop correct?"
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Snap fold. Unless you play in some super awesome spewy live game. In which case please let me know where you play.
This is when you fold KK preflop.
Here's why:
When this guy jams:
He's got 10$ invested. He's shoving into a raise to 30$, a 3b to 90$, a 4b to 150$ and a 5b to 450$.
We have to call ~1650 into a pot of (2100*2)+270=4470 (I might be forgetting some blinds but w/e)
So, we need 1650/4470 equity or 37%.
Against AA/KK/AKs you only have 25%. Against the same range + 1/2 QQ we have 42% Which means he has to be doing this with 1/2 the QQ combos for it to be good.
I also don't think that folding KK here is that exploitative. Keep in mind, he just jammed into 4 ranges all of which are getting progressively narrower. So, the guy making it 30$ probably has like a 30% range which means he snaps this jam off like 1/60 times with AA.. the guy 3betting only has like 15% which means he's calling it off with AA ~1/30 times. AA represents 1/15th of the cold 4 bettors range and probably about a 10th of you range etc... Eventually you realize that even if this is a spot you're worried about getting exploited in (which you shouldnt be) then KK is going to be about the threshold for you to call it off with.
Against AA, KK and AKs you have 32 % EQ; add AK off you rise to 47% add QQ and you have 57%. Did you calculate it by yourself or used a programm and if yes, which one? I am frankly confused that my ev++ results deviate from yours.
You didnt factor in card removal. I used equilab
Pretty sure youre wrong Apotheosis.
KK has 18% against AA only. Adding KK, AKs shouldnt only give a 7% increase in equity.
I dont normally like to do anything that will promote tougher games but I think youre using equilab wrong :b
Apologies I didn't specify the suits in the KK range.
So yes, your equity is 32
10% intuitively seems fairly low actually for % of his cold 5b range AA makes up but yes I agree with your conclusions!
What a hand cold 4b into u when u have KK and a player has a hand good enough to limp/back 6b ai (prob exactly AA obv) , that's pretty sick in itself based on card removal alone. I'd fold.
i have 4bet/folded KK in live games and don't regret that at all :)
generally speaking, its ok to raise and fold KK in spots, where weak players call their entire value range except AA which they will raise/shove. lets say a sample hand which happened to me some time ago : i raise EP 80 (10/20 game) EP with KK, MP1 weak players raises to 280, folds back to me i raise to 900, he raises 2.6k leaving behind 3k. i hate my life but i fold. reason for this : his range for 3bet will be smth like AK and QQ+, which he will never fold to 4bet, but ONLY call, and his 5bet range will be AA prob 8/10 times and other times KK or QQ, AK
in your hand its snap fold for the reasons Apotheosis stated.
against good regulars you don't raise/fold KK but start considering calling instead of 4betting
why not just call the 4bet? Were you really planning to call off anyone's 6bet shove??
Its still higher EV to 5bet fold out of the blinds with KK in this spot given the dynamics, then to cold call 4b and play OOP into 3 or more players
You can take a look yourself in CREV
I refuse to believe that 5bet/folding is a good play here. Do we really expect to have a lot of fold equity here? Do we really expect to get called by worse hands and play postflop all that often? This might sound crazy, but I think we can fold KK here, after we have 4 bets behind us. I don't see how we can play KK profitably here, we can't call 4bet and 5bet/folding with KK seems silly. Way too likely that someone has AA in my opinion and even if not, we have to risk tons of money to find out, and villains are probably not risking their money with worse than QQ all that often.
that seems to be a fairly general response to what appears to be a pretty complicated calculation.. Would need quite a bit of information
Easy fold. Someone limping/6betjamming over a cold 5bet always has AA or these guys all need to be huge spewtards.
if you're deep, why not just have a flatting strat with KK/AA.. you don't have to 5bet lol and I doubt the EV of this strategy would be higher than 5 bet folding KK and 5 betting AA
Guys given the stack depths in question hero could have 5b to 375 and still fold and be plus EV..He didn't need to 5bet so large, as a small 5bet would leverage the same information IMo
In a vacuum, just reading the info given in the OP... this is AA like 99.7% of the time. I think we have to fold. V2, V3, V4 don't have to have strong hands here... but the limp 6-bet seems like it's always AA unless you can pick up some kind of live tell that V is tired or tilted or something out of the ordinary. But just looking at the info in the OP, this is a fold.
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