Hi guys, not a specific hand or anything but I've been trying to figure out how to approach really good LAGs at the live 10/25NLH games I take shots at. In the last session, there was one specific player I was OOP against that was quite involved in a lot of pots. He opened quite wide, 3bet squeezed frequent enough, CR'ed flops with all draws and made hands, had a merged range for his pot size value bets, sometimes flat-calls multiple streets with huge hands as well as floats, bluff-catches light against polarized bets, etc. The guy sits really deep at like 50k, and I usually take shots with 3-4k buy-ins. I felt like everytime I value-bet my medium strength hands, I always got CR'ed by him and folded on later streets to pot size bets. What are some general guidelines for big hands/draws/air/medium hands that might be optimal to play against such opponents? Is it absolutely necessary to play a high variance style to counter his play? I def. prefer not to have big swings in that game since I'm just shot-taking. Thanks in advance.
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James Hudson12 years, 3 months agoMaybe stop betting so many marginal strength hands vs a player who puts you in a lot of annoying spots.
George W.12 years, 3 months agoyeah, I def considered that, but I feel like I'm losing value because I'm probably ahead of his range a lot and I'm letting him see turns/rivers for nothing.
allwind12 years, 3 months agoFold as early as you can to avoid swings. Bigger sizing also helps against the swings, because they tend to create more folds.
Also be aware, they the better EV lines you take, the easier the swings will be to accept. Because you should be winning at a higher bb/100 rate.
James Hudson12 years, 3 months agoI can't imagine that using bigger sizing is going to reduce variance unless it's just the most +ev size to use. George W.12 years, 3 months agoI agree with James that bigger sizing isn't productive unless it's the better overall line to take. It would just be overplaying my hands and causing my opponent to fold out worse while value-owning myself when I run into better hands.
Schu12 years, 3 months agoUse pot control techniques to a greater extent, but mix up your betting patterns with some aggression.
Also, contrary to some, I actually open my range up as opposed to tightening(which the LAG want's you to do to polarize you hand). this will possibly have the effect of reigning him in when you do get to show down and you've shown liter range.
I'm not saying out lag the lag, but play good drawing hands with good pot control.
One thing I might also do, is try and get him in in coin flip situations... put his aggression the test.
George W.12 years, 3 months agothis is great stuff. I was really considering going in this direction when I thought about it myself, but I guess I would have to be mentally prepared to lose a few buy ins if I do commit to playing this style against him. But I think it probably is the best approach, because tightening up lets him play perfectly against me.
soggybottoms12 years, 3 months agoIf he's putting you in rough spots then you need to stop betting so thinly vs him and move towards betting the top of your range in all of those spots. He's only one person on a 9 handed table so avoid playing pots with him. Apparently the game is good enough that your interested in taking shots in it so try to play pots with the guys that are making the game worth taking a shot at. It's ok to give up some ev imo. I guess what i'm really saying is play good solid poker and avoid marginal spots.
ChipNinja12 years, 3 months agoI'm surprised no one suggested to avoid taking shots if he's in the game or if you have to play OOP vs him(not just avoid pots vs him) because that can be difficult. Whenever I take shots at higher games I make it a point that this type of villain is not at the table before I sit. If they are, you said you're just buying in for 100-150bb so I don't think he's going to mess with you a ton even when you do get involved in hands together.
soggybottoms12 years, 3 months agoMeh.. If the game is really good it doesn't matter if he's in the game and you are sitting oop vs him. If the game is really good sit and get the first seat change button. Don't pass up on a huge +ev spot by not sitting in a great game bc one person is in it. Pass up on some small +ev spots by avoiding playing with the person that makes your life difficult while your taking a shot at a bigger game on a limited br.
George W.12 years, 3 months agoyeah, I do feel that there's enough in that game for me to take shots at it despite some of the really good players in the game. I guess my question really is how I do exploit this specific player with all the tendencies I thought of to name. I guess I shouldn't have added in my OP that I want to avoid variance; I'm more interested in knowing how to counter this opponent optimally with my stack size. High variance lines or not.
Samastac12 years, 2 months agoFirst of all you have to feel comfortable with the game you are playing in, meaning that you are ready to face a swing of a couple of buy-ins, without feeling comfortable with this there is nothing you can do against such a player. Probably he is completely aware of your situation (taking shots). The next question is why you want to play this game? To exploit the lag from your description or to exploit other spots at the table?
DirtyD12 years, 3 months agoBased on your description, it sounds like he's a tough, aggressive opponent, who's pretty well-balanced. I don't think there's a single adjustment you can make that's going to let you defeat this opponent type. It kind of reminds me when on one of the TV cash games they did a segment where they asked all the other players how to beat Durrrr...as though there would be a sound bite-sized answer. To beat an intelligent, adaptive opponent, you need to be intelligent and adaptive yourself.
Not to say there aren't adjustment you can make -- just that you shouldn't expect any single adjustment to turn the tables on this guy. I agree with James and others above, that you might consider betting a more polarized range on the flop of hands that are happy getting check-raised and hands that are fine folding, while taking out some of the more marginal hands.
George W.12 years, 2 months agoyeah, every adjustment I make, I anticipate him making on me as well. Def wasn't looking for a cure-all, but I do agree that I need to bet out much less with marginal hands. However, I feel like if I start balancing my flatcalls with big hands, then I can be more confident that if I call his CR, then his bets on other streets would be more skewed towards value.
but you can try to win the position wars - in my regular 5/10 game everyone is trying to get the 1st seat change button and use it right away to improve position on fish or very tough regs. don't be shy and grab any good seat changes that come up right away
Schu12 years, 2 months agoI think the "avoid playing against him" really doesn't apply to this thread because the original question is... how do I play against this LAG... not... how do I not play against him. I don't think you really need to be open to stacking off against him OP as you might have thought by my original post above, but you do need to open up a bit to shut him down. Trying to avoid stacking off with marginal strength hands is going to get you in a lot of trouble.
Bill12 years, 2 months agoI think you also need to take into consideration your effective stack and how that changes how you play vs. the reg. By playing the stack sizes you are, you're opening him up to being more aggressive and making you show up with a hand. You can certainly win vs. him, but I'd look into optimizing your strategy a bit more based on how deep you're playing.
thenut112 years, 2 months agoPlaying the 10/25 buying in 3-4k you have just over 100BBs. You shouldn't feel uncomfortable playing with 100BBs, but I do think you should play tighter and concentrate on betting the top 5% of your hands. It sounds like your play is -EV given that "He opened quite wide, 3bet squeezed frequent enoug h, CR'ed flops with all draws and made hands, had a merged range for his pot size value bets, sometimes flat-calls multiple streets with huge hands as well as floats, bluff-catches light against polarized bets, etc." So bottom line he is out playing you plus he has position and you are folding more hands. Also the fact is his stack is at 50K so playing against your stack with any good draw he will try to bet you out of the pot. Generally speaking playing OOP especially against LAG I just check/check-raise in order to get position and first look to gain more information rather than worry about losing value on my hands since his range is so much higher than yours is (given the stack size its standard). You definitely to need to change game plans playing in this game because players like the ones you mentioned will be common in a 10/25NLH game.
Wahoozle12 years, 2 months agoIf the game is good it's 0% this one player could make it -EV overall. If you're a winning player, his edge over you can't be greater than your overall edge vs. the rest of the table.
"yeah, every adjustment I make, I anticipate him making on me as well."
IMO this line of thinking is flawed. It is probably based on a very successful past history of hands played vs. hero but variance can be a very large part of that.
For instance:
you = top of your range, villain crushes you or folds
you = bottom of your range, villain makes you fold or calls off light
You said you take shots at 10-25, so your sample size is more than likely very small vs. villain.
Just think about the individual scenarios that have come up and figure out what you could have done differently. Maybe your frequencies are off because of the fear this player inspires in you. The only way he's allowed inside your head is if you let him in. Welcome the challenge this provides you and come up with solutions to help your overall game vs. this type of player, as he won't be the last you will encounter.
MerArk12 years, 2 months agoAs I understood the player 's profile , while you are playing oop you need to tighten up your bet bet bet range, and balance them with check raises on flop, generally turns as small that can induce bluffs especially if we are like 150+ bbs. We need to start 4bet with hands with blockers that might giving you trouble playing post flop like KQ, KT , some Axs with ofc monsters in it. For our flop C/R as bluff range we should focus on dry flops such K38r , A62r that villian s range rarely hits.
flatbreadpizza12 years, 2 months agoThe one mistake in a live game one does never want to make is to turn their session into a heads up match between you and a one of these super lags OOP. I tend to be one of these super lags when I play live and my main goal is to get someone to start developing a heads up dynamic with me ooop. When we run into these players we want to keep focus on players you have position on, and the weak spots at the table in a live game.
The best way to play with these super lags in position is to use your relative position versus other players IMO. Postflop we want to understand what type of boards he attacks too light when checked too and use our relative position to collect more info about the hand and dead money from loose live players before playing back with our value and bluff hands. Preflop if we have a weak player in the blinds, the last thing you want to do is raise when the lag 3bets you all the time. In these live situations I'm a huge fan of limping so that when the lag raises the fish can come along and we have a multiway pot with a fish and relative position with a lag who we are assuming is cbetting a ton. I think we should always be trying to play back versus them. These types of players really do well versus a player who never has them guessing and tends to play in an unbalanced rarely playing back and then pickign what to an experienced player of this type are obvious spots for them to start playing back. This is also important being oop that we do play back at him since we never want to end up having to induce to get value with all our strong hands as being oop the lag will then have complete control over the pot size.
WHen it comes to just how to play marginal hands when the lag is putting pressure on, any general theory answer might be helpful, but every situation is different. Individual hand posts of different types of situations you ran into are best for truly learning how to adjust IMO
MentalMuscle12 years, 1 month agoI agree with flatbreadpizza. It's great for your self control / image / confidence if you control the pot sizes, even if it means giving up on some small amount of +EV spots (for which you can't weather the variance, and not what attracted you to the table). Not letting him swell pots prevents him from putting you in tough spots, and also frustrates him too, as it's harder for him to make you feel uncomfortable. Also it's annoying to him as a big stack / table captain for you to just chip away at him.
What about forcing him into super weird spots. For example, show you're intention is to play for stacks, overbet reraise his check raises more often. make him think 'wtf'... and do it with all hands you are willing to stack off with - which you will have to do quite quickly when he tries to reassert control. But that creates a great dynamic for you to play a few all-in pots against him within a short amount of time. I think it's a great spot for going for a double double. Make him the mark. Even call him the mark, lol.
The worst thing you can do imo is to make smallish adjustments and play multiple streets with him. He'll be in control the whole time, of the hands, the pot sizes, the dynamic between the two of you, everything... and then it's just a matter of time until he gets you. And even worse is that when that dynamic exists it opens doors for the other players to come in and squeeze, putting you in even more uncomfortable spots.
Denis Gnidash12 years, 1 month agoStart checking and calling more. Let this player bluff he wants to bluff so bad. Realize the spots he will bluff in such as the obvious draw getting there. This player will be floating tons to try and represent things that hit. So instead of 3 barrel Q96hh8h with a flush or JT check call. This will protect the times you have just a pair. Try and get inside of his head. Ex this player might float you on A or K boards were you generally only fire one bullet as a bluff. So check turn and rivers with top pair and let him bluff. Then once he adjusts to your stronger checking ranges swap them back.
Rrich50812 years, 1 month agoI think one way to play this situation is to buy in right at 100bb and punish his wide pre flop opens and 3 betting by playing a tighter more aggressive 3 and 4 betting preflop game. Playing Lag or sLag is such a great style for playing deep stack cash because great lags make much better decisions on turns and rivers when pots are much bigger. He can turn 68 suited into a very profitable 3 bet spot when stacks are 175bb+ because of his positional advantage and hand reading . Its a lot harder to keep taking preflop equity disadvantages with shallower stacks. Try and figure out what his 3 betting ranges are at this stack depth ( polarized or liner). See how responds to small 4 bets. Basically turn the game into a online cash game, which means getting more money in preflop with a stronger range and shallower stack to pot ratio. Live players have trouble sometimes adjusting preflop ranges because they are so use to better players sitting deep and fishier players sitting shallower.
Of course if you double up/chip and get deep then you will have to change this strategy. There is some solid advice above on how to combat good lags. That said its hard to completely avoid good slags b/c they are in so many spots. There is a decent chance he is putting you in a lot of awkward spots because he knows you are taking a shot. Most people when taking shots pass up marginal +EV spots that they wouldn't in their normal game.
I had a buddy a couple of summers ago played this strategy in the uncapped 10/20 25/50 games that run during the series. He is a good solid mid stakes 6 max reg with no ego, not a world crusher or anything. Kinda on the nitter side for online games. He crushed those games, which could have just been run good to. I argued that he was passing up EV by not covering the fish. He didn't think so at all. He thought there was a lot of value taking advantage of the pre flop edges in those games because everyone else was so deep they just weren't adjusting to him properly. His 2k stack wasn't a concern to everyone else when they were all so deep.
George W.
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Bigger sizing also helps against the swings, because they tend to create more folds.
Also be aware, they the better EV lines you take, the easier the swings will be to accept. Because you should be winning at a higher bb/100 rate.
Also, contrary to some, I actually open my range up as opposed to tightening(which the LAG want's you to do to polarize you hand). this will possibly have the effect of reigning him in when you do get to show down and you've shown liter range.
I'm not saying out lag the lag, but play good drawing hands with good pot control.
One thing I might also do, is try and get him in in coin flip situations... put his aggression the test.
Not to say there aren't adjustment you can make -- just that you shouldn't expect any single adjustment to turn the tables on this guy. I agree with James and others above, that you might consider betting a more polarized range on the flop of hands that are happy getting check-raised and hands that are fine folding, while taking out some of the more marginal hands.
but you can try to win the position wars - in my regular 5/10 game everyone is trying to get the 1st seat change button and use it right away to improve position on fish or very tough regs. don't be shy and grab any good seat changes that come up right away
h, CR'ed flops with all draws and made hands, had a merged range for his pot size value bets, sometimes flat-calls multiple streets with huge hands as well as floats, bluff-catches light against polarized bets, etc." So bottom line he is out playing you plus he has position and you are folding more hands. Also the fact is his stack is at 50K so playing against your stack with any good draw he will try to bet you out of the pot. Generally speaking playing OOP especially against LAG I just check/check-raise in order to get position and first look to gain more information rather than worry about losing value on my hands since his range is so much higher than yours is (given the stack size its standard). You definitely to need to change game plans playing in this game because players like the ones you mentioned will be common in a 10/25NLH game.
"yeah, every adjustment I make, I anticipate him making on me as well."
IMO this line of thinking is flawed. It is probably based on a very successful past history of hands played vs. hero but variance can be a very large part of that.
For instance:
you = top of your range, villain crushes you or folds
you = bottom of your range, villain makes you fold or calls off light
You said you take shots at 10-25, so your sample size is more than likely very small vs. villain.
Just think about the individual scenarios that have come up and figure out what you could have done differently. Maybe your frequencies are off because of the fear this player inspires in you. The only way he's allowed inside your head is if you let him in. Welcome the challenge this provides you and come up with solutions to help your overall game vs. this type of player, as he won't be the last you will encounter.
The best way to play with these super lags in position is to use your relative position versus other players IMO. Postflop we want to understand what type of boards he attacks too light when checked too and use our relative position to collect more info about the hand and dead money from loose live players before playing back with our value and bluff hands. Preflop if we have a weak player in the blinds, the last thing you want to do is raise when the lag 3bets you all the time. In these live situations I'm a huge fan of limping so that when the lag raises the fish can come along and we have a multiway pot with a fish and relative position with a lag who we are assuming is cbetting a ton. I think we should always be trying to play back versus them. These types of players really do well versus a player who never has them guessing and tends to play in an unbalanced rarely playing back and then pickign what to an experienced player of this type are obvious spots for them to start playing back. This is also important being oop that we do play back at him since we never want to end up having to induce to get value with all our strong hands as being oop the lag will then have complete control over the pot size.
WHen it comes to just how to play marginal hands when the lag is putting pressure on, any general theory answer might be helpful, but every situation is different. Individual hand posts of different types of situations you ran into are best for truly learning how to adjust IMO
What about forcing him into super weird spots. For example, show you're intention is to play for stacks, overbet reraise his check raises more often. make him think 'wtf'... and do it with all hands you are willing to stack off with - which you will have to do quite quickly when he tries to reassert control. But that creates a great dynamic for you to play a few all-in pots against him within a short amount of time. I think it's a great spot for going for a double double. Make him the mark. Even call him the mark, lol.
The worst thing you can do imo is to make smallish adjustments and play multiple streets with him. He'll be in control the whole time, of the hands, the pot sizes, the dynamic between the two of you, everything... and then it's just a matter of time until he gets you. And even worse is that when that dynamic exists it opens doors for the other players to come in and squeeze, putting you in even more uncomfortable spots.
Of course if you double up/chip and get deep then you will have to change this strategy. There is some solid advice above on how to combat good lags. That said its hard to completely avoid good slags b/c they are in so many spots. There is a decent chance he is putting you in a lot of awkward spots because he knows you are taking a shot. Most people when taking shots pass up marginal +EV spots that they wouldn't in their normal game.
I had a buddy a couple of summers ago played this strategy in the uncapped 10/20 25/50 games that run during the series. He is a good solid mid stakes 6 max reg with no ego, not a world crusher or anything. Kinda on the nitter side for online games. He crushed those games, which could have just been run good to. I argued that he was passing up EV by not covering the fish. He didn't think so at all. He thought there was a lot of value taking advantage of the pre flop edges in those games because everyone else was so deep they just weren't adjusting to him properly. His 2k stack wasn't a concern to everyone else when they were all so deep.
Just a thought...gl
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