JJ in a river spot
Posted by I_Fold_Jacks
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I_Fold_Jacks
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High Stakes
JJ in a river spot
Blinds are 5/10 at the Bellagio. I RFI in MP with J❤️J♦️ to $30. Immediate player on my left was a Lithuanian guy whom I had developed a friendship with on the table as we had been chatting during the session. He appeared more on the passive side. He called and another guy called too. So 3-way OTF of 7❤️7♦️4 ❤️. I c-bet $60 into $105 for value and protection. Only the Lithuanian guy called. Heads-up OTT of a 9♦️ bringing dual flush draws on the board. I bet $130 into $225 to charge the draws and to protect my hand. Villian called. K♦️ OTR. I checked and villain bet $200 into $485 rather sheepishly. Tells-wise, I felt he was weak. But logically speaking, I didn’t beat much with my hand OTR. I lost to boats like 44 and 99, K❤️x❤️ and 7x. I only beat front door busted ❤️ draws. What’s the best way to think about this hand OTR? How relevant are our (flush draw) blockers in this hand given we hold 2 red Jacks? Thoughts pls, thank you.
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How deep are you starting the hand? Is the third player in the pot in the blinds or in position on you and the other player? These are definitely important aspects of this hand but here are some general thoughts I have about it.
First it's not obvious that you should be betting very often on this flop. You're likely leaving behind a lot of hands in your checking range (meaning it's quite weak and easily exploitable when you check) for example what are you doing with hands like AK-A2cc, KQ-K9cc, QJ-Q9cc, JT-J9cc, or all those in spades, AK-ATo, KQ-KTo, QJo, what do you do with your backdoor flush draws? You have a lot of garbage hands on this board and they need protection because if you bet all of them you can get raised quite easily and if you check them all without some strong hands checking you'll get exploited when you check.
That being said JJ with a flush draw blocker is a decent candidate for a bet. As you said it needs protection but I don't agree that you should 'charge draws'. In my opinion the correct hands to 'charge draws' with is Axhh. Then they're fucked ;). JJ needs decent protection but not a ton. If villain is calling with hands as weak as KQo then for sure protection should be on your mind but otherwise you'll be up against some AQ that is drawing to 6 outs. I think when you have TT, 99, 88 you need more protection from hands like KJs, KTs etc. So I kind of think you should be checking a decent amount here and betting some smaller pairs, some flush draws and maybe some higher pairs like JJ-AA with the flush blocker but definitely not always.
After the flop it's difficult to say since I don't know what else you're getting to the turn with. It seems to me like the turn is a bit of a clearer bet though. You have two good blockers and can still get called by hands like 88, TT, and some sticky weaker pairs like 66, 55 and maybe some A4. Getting villain to fold AQ here is a win for you. So double barreling JJ here is good I think.
River is even harder since I have even less of an idea of your range but I think you might need to be calling. Villain can have lots of Axhh that is bluffing. Even though these hands are probably supposed to be 3bet or fold pre a lot of people will flat their Axs so you beat all those. I'd say esspecially if you think villain can have Kxhh then they can certainly have hands like Axhh. Your specific hand does make for a pretty bad bluff catcher as you block AJ, QJ, JT, J9, J8 missed draws. It really depends on how much Kx you have in your range. I think it's possible for you to have some Kxhh or something like AhKd.
Sry for not stating the stack sizes. We were both quite deep. I had about 2.9 to 3k but the villain’s effective stack was like 1.4-1.6k. The 3rd player in the pot was OTB if I didn’t remember wrongly.
this looks correct to me
i think JJ is a call. will he call call bet with all the 7x? i think he will raise a lot 7x on the flop and turn. so river he will have KQhh KThh K9hh, KQdd, KTdd, 44, 99, 79 but 44, 99 he should go bigger size to polarize his river betting range.
and, what is your range otr? if you bet bet 99+, AhKh goes bet bet bet, i think u have to call with JJ otherwise your are over folding.
MDF=1-(200/(485+200))=0.708. if we x-r 2 KK combos, AA bet bet bet,
river=38 combos, MDF=28 combos=KK 2, QQ-TT, KJhh, KJdd KThh, KTdd, 87s=24. so optimal play is call.
but you said he is a passive guy.
so call 200/(485+200+200)=0.22.
if he is bad or just thin value u and bet small with all his bluff as well,
His range=77, 99, 79, 44=9. and He slowed play A7s
and he value betting with KJ, KT, K9 heard and demon=23 combos.
his bluff: A8dd, A8hh, (AQhh, AQdd, AThh, ATdd, check)
86hh, 65hh, 65dd, T8hh, QThh, A6-A5hh, A3-A2hh=33 too many bluffs,
JJ=29.7%>22%,
you should defend JJ unless u got enough history from this said: he only bet such small for value, otherwise he can bluff all his missed flush draw for +EV.
Thks for the detailed breakdown of the hands and MDF.
Hi I_Fold_Jacks (is this nickname a spoiler for the hand?)
Your flop bet is fine, checking with some frequency also ok but my best guess is we want to favor betting, especially if we are perceiving this player as passive (our strategy won't be gaining much ev from checking since our opponent doesn't like to bet much and we want to put chips into the pot before the board changes). Same goes for the turn.
River is pretty interesting, it would be helpful if you had some more reads on this opponents preflop tendencies, more specifically whether or not we should expect him to be calling with suited one-gappers or hands like K9,Q8s etc. or if we are going to be seeing a pretty tight range. I think a little $100-125 blocker bet would work quite well here, getting a little value from his weaker pairs and letting us realize our pot share vs a passive player. As played, our opponent will have plenty missed flush draws and hands like 65s to chose form as bluffs(again, assuming he is calling these preflop), however he would need to be betting these at a pretty high frequency if we are expecting a value range of 99,44, 7x, Kx and some backdoor flushes. You just need to figure out how frequently you think he bluffs with those.
Your Jh blocker is pretty bad, we do block the 1 combo of KhJh, but we also block AhJh, QhJh, JhTh which doesn't seem like a lot but since we are dealing with a pretty narrow range it's noteworthy. The Jd blocks the AdJd but other that that it is pretty neutral unless we expect this player to make some loose bdfd calls otf.
Cheers.
Thks for the review. IFoldJacks was my username long ago and it so happened that I really did fold jacks in this hand. LOL.
Against a passive player, blocking looks good.
As played, your Jh is very bad. A good default strategy would be to bluffcatch most pairs >66
Your turn bet is too small, I think it makes a lot more sense for you to bet bigger here both in general and with your hand.
Regarding river... as has been said - blockbetting is fine, and bluffcatching pairs that don't block 56s. I wouldn't worry too much about blockers when you have a read in a live game, I think of a read as like a triple-blocker - so with your read that he is weak I would just call. I don't think people bluff medium-sized and sheepishly when a lot of draws miss though, so just from the action I'd probably have the opposite read :P
You have to trust yourself though as you have been sitting there playing with this guy and observing him. If his sizing/timing/physical tells match a bluffing range more than a value range, that should push all your bluffcatchers into call-mode regardless of blockers.
Whats up Eugine? I think I should stop telling people I'm Lithuanian, pretty sure you would have called if I said that I'm from Spain :D
To be honest with you I kind of fucked up river sizing (if numbers you wrote are correct, I don't really remember them now), actually meant to bet even less.
At that time I had idea to use two river sizings and chose one of them to be small betsize for part of my hand range. That does not mean that I don't bluff in that spot.
This time I had value, you win :) WP.
Haha, wow! U actually remembered me, Andrius! Nice bumping into u here, didn't know u're a member of RIO too! Nothing about u being Lithuanian or what, I jus felt that my hand was beat OTR, so I folded. Even if u had told me u were Spanish and the hand had played out the exact same manner, I think I woulda still chosen to let go of my hand. Good hand sir!
flop you just say 'another guy called.' what was his position?? because this makes quite a large difference, if he was on the button he should have very few hands such as 7x-only a couple of suited combos like 87s/76s/A7s, some of which will squeeze and some that will fold (based on how loose/tight the villain is.)
if he is in the big blind he will have much more 7x-perhaps A7o as well as a ton of suited 7x like K7s,Q7s,J7s,T7s etc. so this should affect your pre-flop betting frequency quite a lot based on the position of the 3rd guy in the pot.
lets just say the guy flatted the BB. your range probably is around tied 2nd in terms of EV on this flop with the BB, who has more nutted hands but more complete air hands as well, which off sets the EV he gains from those 7x combos. IP has a bunch of medium pocket pairs, as well as suited hands, and some 7x. so he has the highest EV imo and thus you should be checking most, if not all of your range on the flop. most inexperienced players tend to over c-bet OOP in cash, even HU on this board you should be mainly x'ing this board, once you add in an extra player then you should prob x 100% of the time on the flop.
because lets say you c bet a hand such as the one you have on this board, you can't even go 3 streets unless one of the guys is a massive station fish. the board will also change if the FD comes in. your hand (and range) does best when it goes xxx on the flop and then you can either call twice vs the bb when he leads turn or bet twice when he x to you on the turn.
as played, your hand/run out is exactly why you need to be x'ing on the flop. IP has a tight range and it's very hard for him to have any bluffs/hands you beat when he calls 3 ways and calls turn/bets river. so don't hang yourself and x the flop. i'd just fold thinking he is significantly under-bluffing and isn't value betting worse.
If I was heads up I might bet flop- I probably check this one back and feel the table out. I may bet turn depending what comes out and how it feels. Jacks are just a tough hand to play no matter what.
I have been conditioned to check back these types of hands/situations more as time has gone by.
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