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JJ 3 way very wierd action, help appreciated

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

JJ 3 way very wierd action, help appreciated

BN: $109.57
SB: $140.69 (Hero)
BB: $91.89
UTG: $43.76
HJ: $100
CO: $520.26
both villains are fairly unkown 0 dynamic
HJ is playing 53/05 over 520 hands
BB is playing 25/21 over 109 hands 3bet 12 over 43 opps and 3bet hero is 30%

HJ is probably a really hot fish looking at his stack size and love of limping
BB seems to be a more standard bad player/reg his overall stats seem fine, but hes not sitting with a full stack.
Preflop ($1.50) (6 Players)
Hero was dealt J J
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO calls $1, BN folds, Hero raises to $4, BB raises to $11, CO calls $10, Hero calls $7
I feel like BB can be cold 3betting with a large portion of his range since for some reason hes really aggressive towards me. Never really picked up on it until this hand.
Flop ($34.50) 4 7 3 (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB bets $16, CO calls $16, Hero calls $16
I thought about c/r, but I thought that if i were to c/r here i should have just 4bet pre and tried to get it in. At this point i'm suspect to HJ limping with AA KK QQ.
Turn ($82.50) 4 7 3 7 (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB bets $64.89, and is all in, CO folds
I think in practice i'm folding this to a solid reg I respect, but vs an unknown I'm not sure if this is a standard call or fold. His range is wide pre, still wide on the flop and left me feeling lost.
I decided to call it off since I can have alot of 78s 89s QQ KK in this spot, maybe AA but i think i'm going to 4bet it and try to get it in with the limping fish.

Thanks in advance, probably a standard hand that I am overlooking but thanks for the comments.

22 Comments

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james 12 years, 2 months ago
I'd definitely fold the turn. After representing a strong hand preflop, villain continuation bets into two people and then jams a turn that he's unlikely to pick up equity on with his bluffs into two people again where one of them is a fish.
brodyz 12 years, 2 months ago
what do you think about donking the flop james? i suspect the reg isnt going to cb bluff very often so we dont lose value in that sense.
james 12 years, 2 months ago
It seems fine/good from an exploitative point of view but it's a little murky if we want to have a somewhat balanced range here. When we lead we almost never have a set (doesn't need protection, potentially loses out on cbet from reg etc) and we're unlikely to have the best overpairs because we just called closing the action preflop. On the other hand, villain is totally uncapped and can have all those big pairs and potentially straights. In spots where we're capped and villain is uncapped I think it's usually best not bloat the pot if possible.
brodyz 12 years, 2 months ago
But we would only need a balanced range to prevent ourself from being exploited , right? In this hand the reg will never try to bluff us off our capped range because there's still a fish to act.
John Mackay 12 years, 2 months ago
Kinda weird that BB bets flop an jams turn, pretty sure he's not always CBing 7x off multiway so that makes his turn jam suspicious although fish do get very excited with Kk or AA so I still fold but I fold with a suspicious slow click not an insta fold
flatbreadpizza 12 years, 2 months ago
Did you consider raising bigger pre? That fish has a lot of chips and I think you should definitely consider raising bigger with these very strong value hands as he is even more likely than normal to call.I think I raise the flop (folding to the 3better if he reraises, proceeding very carefully if he calls). I think you can pretty comfortably know you are folding the worst hand vs the 3better and there is a non 0% chance that a better hand folds (and hands with some equity which is only a positive. Meanwhile I think you can get max value from the fish this way. When we call since we are oop we are going to allow the turn to get checked through a lot which sucks. I don't really like calling and donking. I don't think we have to raise very big. I think a small 2.5x to 3x will get the most value from teh fish.As played I think the turn is a clear fold. I don't expect most people to start barreling off 3 ways with a huge fish in the pot here without a strong hand or very decent equity.
vanity02 12 years, 2 months ago
Isoing larger is an option, but I'm not 100% sure CO is a fish. So doing my standard iso size. I think if I raised flop I'd be pretty pot committed with 2 outs when called which is probably not the best. 2.5-3x is probably what I would consider a large x/r and will leave me with around 50-30 behind. I think the risk vs reward in terms of calling or raising seems makes it seem like calling is better and folding turn is clear if barreled like villain did.
mike 12 years, 2 months ago
i pretty much agree with above. i do like a bigger isolation raise preflop. once BB bets turn into 2 callers one of whom is fish you beat 0% of his turn value range and i doubt he is bluffing much (except with AsKs or other big equity draws).

@James - i understand why you might not want to lead this hand for balance/GTO reasons but 3 way with a fish in the pot i am playing a very exploitative strategy. i would lead in this spot as i think the BB(reg) will likely play very honest in this spot and i want to get value from fish. i guess i am also thinking the reg may be CBing less in this spot than you think? what are your thought on this way of thinking about the hand?
ahfats 12 years, 2 months ago
only thing I have to add is about op's conclusion that bb is 3betting wide here because of his stats - this way off imo, but is a very common mistake people make in poker (and in life! google "overfitting"). if villain is treating you the same as other regs, then him 3betting you 30% over this sample (which presumably is 3/10) is super super standard. to actually quantify how we should react to the information we have, we would need to specify our prior beliefs about the likelihood that villain is treating you similarly to other regs vs the likelihood that villains gameplan is to to 3bet you a ton for some reason. assuming villain is a multi-tabling reg and you aren't playing like 82/77 or something, our prior probability distribution should be massively weighted towards the "his 3bet numbers against you are unchanged from his overall 3bet vs regs numbers, outside of adjusting for position" hypothesis, so the small amount of new information we have should not drastically alter our belief away from this hypothesis.

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