Interesting spot on turn with str8flush draw vs bluffy opponent in 3bpot

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Interesting spot on turn with str8flush draw vs bluffy opponent in 3bpot

Game is 9 handed, blinds are 5/5, plays pretty deep. Villain has 2100 at start of the hand, I cover.
Villain opens up to 65% of hands (!), is very LAG, is a good handreader, but is kinda spewy, never folds against me, fights back a lot (stubborn), have a tendency to level himself, almost never folds to 3bets (ip or oop, doesnt matter), and can be very creative postflop. Can make big calls, can not hero fold, triple barrels more than anyone I ve seen. Also 4bets junk sometimes if he doesnt call against a 3bet (his fold to 3bet might be 10 or 15%)

Villain opens mid pos to 20, fish calls on CO, I 3bet to 110 on button with QTss, Villain 4bets to 280, fish folds, I decide to call ip against a range that is VERY likely to be super bluff heavy.
Flop comes KhKcJs. Villain bets 300, I call. Turn is the 8s, villain bets 420, there is 1600 effective left, what do you do ? Comments appreciated !

18 Comments

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quadrangemerge 12 years, 2 months ago
Fold. I don't think you'd have a lot of fold equity if you raise and not enough pot odds to continue to call. You already called flop on a pretty lockdown board and that didn't even slow him down. If he's self aware at all, it really looks like you are trapping him given how much he's been 3barreling. C/min raise flop would have been a better line if you think he's that airy
quadrangemerge 12 years, 2 months ago
Never mind, I didn't write the pots down properly but looks like he bet the turn small giving you odds to call. Seems like a call but def not raise on the turn as there is close to zero fold equity. There are some cards that land that give you the straight but boat up his range. So the river decision depends on how often he bets rivers. If he bets for value at the top end of his range, then check call. If he value bets thin you may have room to check raise. If the river gets you a flush that doesn't boat up hiss range a fair amount then might even lead for smallish fraction of the pot
Brian Rast 12 years, 2 months ago
Firstly, your stack sizes don't make sense... you say 2100 eff. at the beginning... but in the turn spot, you guys have already put in 280 + 300 + he bets 420 = 1000$ ... which would leave only 1100$ left eff., yet you say there's 1600$? Do you want to clarify this first?
frenchkiss 12 years, 2 months ago
Hi Brian, and first of all thanks for your contributions to the forum, I dig your posts a lot.
I think I was not clear in my original post, he bets 420 and has 1100 left behind approximately.
And just to make things clear, having played this opponent almost everyday for the last 4 months, I guess he has air like 80%+ of the time here and I'm not concerned about running into a monster AT ALL. My goal is to find a way to maximize EV in this current spot against a hand that is very airy, and possibly balance my ranges fairly well not to be exploitable, which I seem to have failed to do, as you will see in the actual results :)
BagOfSuck 12 years, 2 months ago
I prefer flatting pf since we're IP and you have a hand that plays well if it goes multiway. I don't see any logic in building a huge pot with Q high vs an opponent that never folds to our 3bets and likes to call us down post flop.
frenchkiss 12 years, 2 months ago
Hi BagOfSuck, thanks for the reply. That's one adjustment I made against him, I usually go strictly for value against him, as he is leveling himself often; On the other hand (and I don't know if that's correct ???) he is continuation betting so often, and opening with so much trash (and calling 3b oop) that I was kind of feeling it's ok to 3bet, get back the lead, and build bigger pots in position with monsters AND playable hands when we are 400bb+ deep. Any thoughts on that ?
Brian Rast 12 years, 2 months ago
I think shove turn...
it removes the chance that we get bluffed on the river by a worse hand and have to fold... (i guess we don't HAVE to fold, but calling here to call blank rivers with queen high seems a bit marginal compared to shoving imo) or by Ax hands that 4bet and that folds turn to shove.
We have enough equity against this opponent that we are more than happy to get it in here, and i think this is a great semi-bluff to include in our range along with other value hands we'd be shoving.
I see some merit to calling, but I'd rather be calling with ace high draws to consider calling river shoves in this spot as a way to balance...

that said, this is a spot live where i will sometimes go with a read, and if i felt like for whatever reason he wasn't folding turn / comfort level, etc... but without any read like that i think shove is better
frenchkiss 12 years, 1 month ago
You' re spot on Brian; My first thought was to go for call turn/call any river, as I think I m probably ahead of his range with Q high, then I thought that it would really suck if he showed me Ace rag, as he would be likely to 4 bet with an A blocker... Taking that in consideration, I decided to shove, and thought it would be pretty hard for him to call, given his bluff frequencies. Even if results don't matter that much, I did jam on turn, and he tank called with 98o and won the flip. I felt bad after it, thinking that he did "put me on a draw" because I jammed turn, as I would have been very likely to flat any bluff catcher (TT, Jx, etc) or any monster (any K, boat, AA...), making my bluff "obvious".
But as said previously, call/call with Q high seemed a bit ambitious (even if more balanced); Maybe the right thing would be now to shove more value hands on turns in spots like those to balance my ranges, but then I make him fold a lot of his bluffs (and he DEF ships the third barrels VERY often...), so I really don't know :/
Peter Jennings 12 years, 2 months ago
I just disagree about the jam. If villain is as good/observant as you think he is, he just won't be betting this turn w/ a range that will fold frequently enough. The only way it's more +ev to jam turn than call it is if you think villain will either b/f a hand he's betting for value, or is both barreling so frequently and is always barreling river regardless of the runout that you would be forced to call/fold all the times you miss.
Sean Lefort 12 years, 2 months ago
I also opt for flatting pf. I think the best 3bet adjustment against a guy like this is to 3bet a linear range of the top X% of hands with respect to their equity against his wide calling range. Our 3bet-bluffs lose a lot of money pre-flop and may very well not be able to recover that money post-flop given that he's LAGgy and decent/tricky/creative. So it makes sense not to have that range at all and simply just {3bet the top X%, flat the rest Y% that we deem profitable}.

Also note that this adjustment (3betting linearly) is something that some really good online players are starting to do in some 6m situations, in contrast to the traditional strategy of 3betting polarized ranges all the time. I think it's a really interesting topic.
flatbreadpizza 12 years, 2 months ago
I disagree with this only because this deep versus his super wide range I'm ranking QTs as one of the strongest hands, better than a hand like kqo
Sean Lefort 12 years, 2 months ago
Yeah it would certainly help to know just how wide villain is opening from MP here. 65% seems like a pretty gross over-estimate (very easy to fall victim to variance in short sample sizes in live poker) so I'm assuming it's something a little more reasonable, against which QTs is probably pretty close to the bottom of X% somewhere. Either way, good point.
frenchkiss 12 years, 1 month ago
Well, I' ve seen him open down to 42s utg, and defend BB against an MP raise and a caller with J4s. He will def raise any suited 2 gappers from any position, and close to anything suited or offsuit 1 gapper from CO and Button. (I ve played over 4 months with him, 4 or 5 days a week).

As you mentioned Sean, I already started to develop a counter strategy based on his tendencies, but I don't know if they are correct : I started to flat more with A2s/A5s and ATs/AKs (I 3 bet the lattest like 50% of the time, call 50%) in order to let him get flush under flushed (or at least flush drawed over flushdrawed; He just can't fold when he flops a flush draw), I 3bet A6/A9s in order to reduce stack to pot ratio and be able to bet/get in comfortably if I flop nut flush draw+additionnal outs like gutter or Open ended, like A9s on 678 with both of my suit (I 3 bet those because of the fact that implied odds are worse than A5s for example, that have great deception for wheels etc).

I also 3 bet JTo sometimes, as he likes to call 3bets with medium suited connectors oop, so I can potentially flop a straight when he makes 2 pairs, or flop top pair+straight draw when he has bottom pair and straight draw, or second pair with straight draw. Lately I started 3 betting 99/TT/JJ (which I did not do always before), as I want to get all the stack in if I flop set over set, as we usually play 400bb deep (but I open myself to problems when he 4bets...).

I will sometimes (rarely...) 3 bet suited connectors just to give the illusion that I 3bet more frequently than what I really do, because my 3 bet/getting in range will usually be QQ+ vs him (I ve seen him go crazy with AQo or 99 with 400bb).

I don't know if those adjustments make any sense, and I' d be very happy to hear what you guys have to say about them, and hopefully also hear what other strategies/adjustments I could integrate against this specific opponent.

Even if spewy, this guy is def the strongest reg in the game, all other players are recreational players, and I feel that developing a solid overall strategy against him (who is my only "tough opposition") will definitely make an impact on my results.

Regarding hands like QTs, when I am in position, I just felt I gave up too much by not 3betting, but I could be way wrong. I mean, he still calls with inferior suited crap, and taking back the initiative against a super wide range had some value, but I' d be very interested to hear what you think are the pros and cons. But I m sure I could be convinced that flatting has better merits :)
Lee Vincent 12 years, 1 month ago
i like flatting pre cuz it also widens your range i think, lets him keep his lag going and ur in position with a great hand stp. If his hand is really weak, no reason to give him chance to fold imo. as played u let him 4 bet so now u have mediocre hand with way less behind which gives him leverage in hand out of pos. i like shoving turn, but its interesting how light he will call, if you think you actually have best hand alot, i guess call turn, call most rivers against this opponent is best. flatting pre would make hand alot easier to play imo.
James Vogl 12 years, 1 month ago
"Villain triple barrels more than anyone you ever played with, 4 bets with 89 oop and calls stack when he turns 1 pair, and can stack off 400 bb with aq or 99". Is it too simple to considerably tighten up your pf range, never dream of 3bet with q10 and then you can shove turn with your hand and if he wants to call with just a pair of 8s good luck to him.

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