Help with Pio results
Posted by sauloCosta10
Posted by
sauloCosta10
posted in
Low Stakes
Help with Pio results
Hey. I just downloaded the free version of Pio too see if I could get something interesting out of it. In the first tree I built (actually was already preset, I just added some bet sizes) I already don't understand some results. For example:
Why would I want to check/fold a flush draw vs 55% pot bet, or why is that a good strategy from a game theory perspective? Am I missing something from the settings or what? Sorry if its a newbie question, first time using this program
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I'm still learning myself, but still mainly try to focus on exploitative strategies because lol-microstakes. This video should help you get started as it helped me understand some of the functionality. Some other vids too when you decide you want to dive deeper into the program.
PIO quickstart guide
Low FDs do usually not have odds to call a turn cbet and you have too many of them to use all as XR hands. To avoid folding low FDs OTT they will often be used as flop XR hands. Your paired, A-high and K-high FDs will usually call flop and turn. Some hands like K4s and A3s is often mixed into the XR range to be able to get strong flushes after raising.
One of the problems with calling draws with high card of less than K is that all of villains bluffs that give up OTR beat them. IP you can call all FDs on most turns to standard bet sizes.
On what boards GTO models are raising a lot of "naked" low fd after dfnd from bb with SPR> 12? Can you give me some examples?
They are used as XR bluffs on most flops you have a XR range and maybe like 25% of the time if you XR 10%.
Thats sound strange to me. In all situtations I examined so far when we dfnd bb and have sizeable x/r range "naked" low fd are called more than 80% of the time on the flop. Can you give me an example and ranges when it doesn't hold true for high SPR?
Hi Saulo, I just saw you posted a session to be reviewed @ NL10 and you opened up this thread also... I don't want to be rude or something, but don't you think at those stakes you are better off to focus on other things? I understand GT is fascinating, but probably you are wasting your time (right now) instead of beating up the fishes...
just my 2 cents obv, best of luck
Studying with Pio is not the same as aiming to play GTO. He learned in this short session that he can't call all small FDs OTT to a small bet with a wide range. That is a profound improvement and has nothing to do with trying to play GTO. Multi street EV calcs is very hard to do without a software like Pio.
But the result you got in an equilibrium, given the data you input. So it's a GTO abstraction what he found. Anyway, the point is another one... Pio is valuable for sure if you know what you are doing, but imho, @NL 10 other things come into play. Probably the most inportant thing is to build a roll to play a little higher... instead of study Pio
Saul puts allot of effort into his game in general... I don't think this will hurt ;D
Keep up stellar work OP
He is evil empire spie, with that name and anti pio. GTyolO
Pio without flop was very confusing for me too, it's a whole different program when you can look at flop.
@6seven8
Abstraction isn't a bad word obv, i'm just saying that in order to get good results you should enter pretty good assumptions. Anyway I'm not in the antiPio camb, not even close, but playing with it at these stakes it's an overkill
People used to think that if you know or want to know about GTO, you don´t care about explotation. And its exactly the opposite, as better my gto understanding is, i become a better exploitative player
@Juan
I didn't say anything close to that... but at microstakes, players have glaring leaks and even if you don't know anything about GTO you can exploit them. If OP is thinking is doing a good use of his time, well ok, my post is obv imho, so everyone is free to choose
@6seven8
You are going to get a good map, if you are putting all the data correctly in Pio. If you miss some assumption, your map would be useless or maybe dangerous
GTnO If we miss an assumption, we figure out why we missed it so we plug it and cater our next decision to best fit all our future assumptions that we'll be making.
Isn't this the big picture of poker, after all?
Generally, our mistakes when constructing ranges in Pio will be negligible.
So all Pio's users will be HS pros in no time
Yeah, everybody that nay-says Pio uses the argument of "it is based on assumptions."... Well yes, poker is based on assumptions.. or are you people just clicking buttons with eyes closed? It is an invalid argument.
Assuming you have played awhile now, I'm pretty sure you would consider yourself pretty good compared when you have just started. When you was a total noob your game was based on dead wrong assumptions... I wonder if you would put the data in Pio what you might get.
Anyway, it all boils down to time managment, if you and other users are using it you are assuming it is an investiment for you future winnings. I don't think it is the case of mine so I'm not study with Pio.
After starting learning Pio's solution,i realize that i can't call low naked FDs OOP OTT most of the time.(Which is the thing that i done a lot before learning)It isnt strong enough just like you cant float w/low BDFD OOP OTF most of the time.
And i strongly recommand these two articles.
one is written by Galvin 'BMLM' Bay(2years SNE,z500 reg,GTO-style player)
The Myths surrounding GTO play in Poker
and
from the GTORB blog by Alex Sutherland
Yes,u can say that players in z10 have a lot of leaks.u should try to exploit them and get higher ev.But i want to say,do you know what is their leak?and how much is their deviation?
Using the Pio,u can get the answer about what is your max exploitive strat based on your assumptions.
Pio helps u learn the gto solution first and also helps u construct ur exploitve play.
I am not sure i explain it clearly enough.but those 2 articles might help u a lot for understanding GTOplay and exploitive play,i guess
Probably I've explain myself badly, that's why the whole discussion came up. I didn't say solver are useless by any means. I just said, given the limited time and the stakes OP is actually playing he's better of putting in hours at the table and watch some video instead of digging deeper into GTO play. Regarding making correct assumptions, well... Pio has a lot, of options, and I'm not sure a player who is playing this low is going to make all things perfect.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying OP is retarded obv, but if he's playing this low there's must be a reason for it. Nothing to be ashamed of, probably he's still a beginner and that's fine.
If you are studying Pio at the stakes, you aren't focusing on what is truly important which is getting away from the micros ASAP. Obv if don't agree with me it's fine, I've just stop and post ITT because I know some guys who are very intelligent but they are stuck in the micros for years, they study pio, theory and so on, but still at micros. The goal of the game is to make money not to be the best theorist around. Also I want to remind you there are many things other than strategy in poker, like work ethic, execution at the tables and so on...
All comes to making wise decision with your money, if you think you are going to make more money long term studying Pio at these stakes, go ahead plz. I don't but I think we can live with it :D
Again best of luck
PS. this is a goog reminder for myself to write on my blog my thoughts on the Pio issue, I'll link you here once i've done it and I hope to spark some good discussion
You are right and this whole discussion started because of a bad assumption you made about me "digging deeper into GTO play". I played with Pio for like 30 minutes after I downloaded it, because I was curious about the software since everyone is talking about it. I have a pretty basic understanding of GTO from a partial read I made of Mathematics of Poker, but its not a subject I study atm, I just thought the software could give some interesting insights about the game.
Thats a very simplistic sentence. People have a lot of different interests in poker, not only the money. I play NL10 and I do wanna play higher limits, but money is not the only thing a poker career can give you. Also, I think not being the best theorist around will eventually prevent you from being one of the best players around, and although I play micros atm, I do wanna be one of the best in this game in the future. So I do think theory is very important and I don't need to play higher to pay attention to it. Of course I don't need to have a solid understanding of GTO to realize some obvious leaks in the pool I play, and that I should focus on exploiting those leaks, which will make me exploitable myself instead of unexploitable as GTO proposes, but I feel like there is no downside of getting to know it a little better.
I agree with this and it's something I give the same amount of importance as strategy knowledge.
I think you could have saved yourself from this long discussion if you haven't precipitated yourself in assuming I was doing a lot of work with Pio, when I actually spent 30 mintues playing with it
Well, seems I judge you or something, but it wasn't my intention. I just saw your thread and I thought it might be usefull to write something to avoid to stuck in the micros, as a lot of smart players I know are stuck into.
Hope you to best obv
Exploitative play requires to identify when your opponent is doing a lot of one thing, or too little of other one... Now stop right here !
How do you know how much is a lot ? How do you know how much is too little ? For example, c-betting 100% at some textures seems like a lot, but in fact could be that our opponent is allow to do that and it´s nothing wrong with that.
What i´m trying to say is that in order to know what my opponent is doing bad, and how to exploit it, i need to know how he should play and how should i respond against, then explotation starts.
the moment you realize how difficult poker is in 2016 when micro stakes players have a long discussion about theory
Fuck, I have a lot more studying to do.
When I started with some coaching, I tryed to play all my game based on GTO.
That fucked my life for about 6 months, I always tried to balance everything everywhere, that is not close to do something right at the stakes I was playing.
So... If the program says that fold 65 of diamond close to 100% on Q T 8 8 with 2 diamonds, means that, to have a balanced strategy vs a person who is playing a balanced strategy.
Then apply what you know, if you are vs an unbalanced player, and you know that is good to call there, just call. In some near future, if you continue playing and going up, you will face someone that make the same simulation for that spot, that means that check/fold that hand probably is going to be the best decision. So be very careful about how or where to apply what you learn.
About the 65s calling on Ts 8h 8d Qd, what are you going to do on the river if you don't hit?
And if you hit the flush, are you going to check call I guess. Which hands that we beat are beting on Ad, Kd, Jd, Td, 9d, 7d? Imagine that they bet pot, are we going to have more than 33% eq vs betting range, or we just have a bluffcatcher? So hit to have bluff catcher is very -ev call I believe.
But I played in some places that will cal 2x pot donk on the river with just the T. So... I will call 100% with my flushdraw there.
I hope I was clear enough to help!
Gl!
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