Hard river decision
Posted by ReallyMy3BET
Posted by
ReallyMy3BET
posted in
Low Stakes
Hard river decision
Im not sure if my river call is +EV on the longt-term. First of all i dont think that he is playing his sets on the flop slow on that flop so i discounted 99/TTT/QQ. My range on the flop is two pairs T9/QT and Q9 , sets without QQ cause im 3beting this preflop and straight plus strog FD. Which note should i put on him after this play?
mbed This Hand
Hand History for Game 1111111111 (IPoker)
?20.00 EUR NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, November 03, 01:17:20 ET 2017
Table Lahti 12 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 3: Player3 ( ?20.20 EUR ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 22, 3B: 10, AF: 3,6, Hands: 447
Seat 5: Player5 ( ?16.76 EUR ) - VPIP: 25, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 1,3, Hands: 199
Seat 7: Hero ( ?47.88 EUR ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 19, 3B: 7, AF: 1,8, Hands: 22337
Seat 9: Player9 ( ?70.12 EUR ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 18, 3B: 3, AF: 1,1, Hands: 218
Hero posts small blind [?0.10 EUR].
Player9 posts big blind [?0.20 EUR].
* Dealing down cards *
Dealt to Hero [ Jh Ks ]
Player3 raises [?0.60 EUR]
Player5 folds
Hero calls [?0.50 EUR]
Player9 folds
* Dealing Flop * [ 9s, Td, Qs ]
Hero checks
Player3 bets [?0.98 EUR]
Hero raises [?3.03 EUR]
Player3 calls [?2.05 EUR]
* Dealing Turn * [ 9d ]
Hero bets [?3.73 EUR]
Player3 calls [?3.73 EUR]
* Dealing River * [ Ts ]
Hero checks
Player3 bets [?12.84 EUR]
Hero calls [?12.84 EUR]
Hero wins ?39.60 EUR from main pot
Player3 shows [Qd, Kd ]
Loading 4 Comments...
My first instinct says I might have found a fold here as this river card is just the worst card possible...so yeah I get your concerns that the call could be -EV in the long run.
So let's see his line to the turn could be: [combos]
Value beats us by river: Two pair like T9s (rather s only pre?!) [4], QT [9], Q9s [4] (as he rather wouldn't open Q9o pre?!), some of his sets even though you're right and he will play them fast probably [3] -> total [20]
Semi-Bluffs beats us by river: JT not always taking this line (50%) [4], AJss [1] , 78ss [1] and strong A-high flushdraws [7]
But he might not bet his fluhes even..let's say he only bets 15% of them -> [4+1,5]
Total Combos that beat us: [25,5]
Semi-Bluffs we beat: AKdd and possibly some AK in general [1+ 4.5 (half of the AK)], AJdd and possibly some AJ in general [1+ 4.5 (half of the AJ)], JJ [3] -> total [14 combos] but he should probably check these hands often instead of C-betting so let's take only half of them [7 combos]
Value we beat by river: J8ss (should not open J8o pre?!) straight [3], AA [6], KK [3], AQ [12], KQ [9], QJ [9]
-> total [42 combos]
How often is he turning these into a bluff? I was surprised to see him KQ turn into a bluff. This is probably the crucial point where a river call could get +EV or -EV.
Saying he only puts 5 of his 7 combos with A high and the 3 JJ combos to bluff (hands with weakest showdown value)
-> [8 bluff combos]
So we win 8/33.5 = 24% of the time...
Pot odds say are 1 to 2.1 so we need to win 32% of the time.
So well..this might be a fold. But to be honest during analysis I switched some things around. And when we end up with 4 more bluff combos so 12 instead of 8 it's break even. If he's a player with a very high C-bet he will have more AK and AJ bluffs in his range and it could become a good call. Similarly with strong hands turning into bluffs, if he's doing that super frequently it becomes a good call.
-> Takeaway for me: The splitting point is how wide we predict villain to turn his medium hands into bluffs on this river and how often he ends up holding AK/AJ on the river. As a thinking player he should then turn these into a bluff because it's a big scarecard and he is at the bottom of his range.
As I tried to model a standard player (with my guesses) I would have to fold after this analysis against unknown. Also I think the standard player pool rather hesitates to turn value hands into bluffs at low stakes.
BUT: Against your opponent who turned KQ into a bluff this would mean he also should turn QJ into a bluff. Even if he only does it 50% of the time with these hands this is 9 extra bluffs combos which makes it a good call to this specific player, after all.
Let me know if you find any dislogical conclusions / thoughts / errors in this attempt ;)
How I see it, value he has TT,99,QQ (discounted) 9Ts and J9s That's about it, bit of a stretch to give him many Tx combos imo
Bluffs AJdd and pairs turned into bluffs, I would discount Qx,KK,AA turned into bluff at these stakes (not sure if right).
What else do we expect to see here from a reg ?
So I believe Fold max EV
I think his bluff is ambitious but quite good, there are not many hands available to bluff, bit unexpected on nl20
I would fold preflop to be honest, KJo don't play that well OOP, you could make a case by 3betting maybe but I would just fold.
As played, I would also fold, people just don't bluff enough at this spot at this stakes, I respect villain for taking the shot (was he bluffing or just clicking buttons??), but I don't think the tendencies of the pool justify this call at all.
Hi Eldora, thank you so much for your great answere. It makes so much sense!
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