flatting Aces in position
Posted by vegandiet
Posted by
vegandiet
posted in
Mid Stakes
flatting Aces in position
My question is what % of the time would you flat aces vs this type of player 100bb's deep. what about 200-300 bb's deep?
how does this change with KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ?
what about vs a tighter player 3 betting 5-7% of hands?
Thanks!
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- If you feel that he is folding a lot (A moneyprinting 4b bluff spot) you basically dont wanna 4b any of your premium hands.
- However if you have dynamics and he isn't gonna be folding too much vs 4bets, then 4betting premiums very likely is higher EV than flatting.
This topic can get a bit more advanced I would say, theres some other theoretical things to consider aswell, but I think this should be some of what you were looking for.
ps. dont think of balance but rather the highest EV play.
To me, this doesn't sound good. Much of the time, reraising has so much value that you shouldn't need to flat AA often if ever in this spot. Being balanced can be good in a lot of situations, but you don't need to be balanced here without further information about your opponents and how they see you/what they do in 3bet pots and how they react to your 4bets.
Could you please give more information about why you feel the need to be balanced here?
Conversely, if you start 4bet bluffing his high 3bet %, and he keeps jamming over you, you know that you'd like to have big hands there. Its all about finding the spots that your opponents seem to dominate you, and find a way to be stronger there. Some guys jam over 4bets alot more than others, some stack off real light on the flop, some just pick up the big hands vs. you which artificially inflates their 3bet % in your eyes...These are things you need to find out, and then adjust your game accordingly.
Yes JJ&QQ, will have to be played defensively on some flops, however vs a guy who is folding a lot to 4bets you dont really accomplish anything by 4betting except getting it in vs a rather tight range - AK and sometimes a lower pp (and folding out his bluffs which we should gain more EV by keeping in his range). When it comes to AK, I feel very good about flatting this hand vs a polarized range, since we can peel most flops if not all and when we do hit an ace or a K we dominate so much of his Axs, Kxs 3b bluffing range.
I think the same applies to AA (I agree wtih Micheal Dolle), he really needs to have a very polarized and be non-defendant vs 4bets in order to flat AA because there is so much value in getting it in vs AK 93% eq and a lower pp 80% eq.
So unless hes spewy post I think 4betting with AA is just higher EV.
So yeah vs a very polarized guy (who is folding a lot to a 4b) QQ,JJ,AK,KK is a flat, AA is close but 4betting likely best imo.
-igotya
This can be a legitimate concern, but I want to bring up that there's also a lot of value in taking the pot down right now. It can be easy to see that 4-betting is +EV when we get a lot (too many?) folds. It's harder to show that it's +EV to flat these hands pre... although it certainly could be so.
My concern here is that someone could be folding to the 4bet too much, but that it's still more +EV for us to 4bet anyways. An example would be someone that won't put much (any?) money in on the flop except in really +EV situations (they flop a big hand/big draw, or the board is really good to cbet).
We can always go deeper, that's one of the things I love about poker :)
I really like the suggestions about flatting AK more and 4 betting AA more.
I have definitly noticed a trend of more players shoving over 4 bets lighter so i think it is better to fully realize the equity of your AA and not let AQ, AK, 99+ hit a bad flop where the rest of the money doesn't go in but would have preflop as a huge favorite. And lately i see guys like shoving over 4bets with Ace rag so you gotta love getting it in vs A5 etc
really love the suggestions about flatting AK more, because i agree you can peel many flops and get paid of by worse hands as a huge favorite. vs the same range as above 99+,AQs+,A5s-A4s,AQo+ getting in AK preflop we are only a 52% favorite, a truly marginal spot. But when we flat and flop or turn top pair we can be a huge favorite against weaker aces and under pairs, so i really like this line to find a bigger edge and decrease flipping variance.
I agree that calling with TT-QQ and AK is mistake though. They do not flop nearly as well and you probably want some kind of 4 betting range and those hands play very nicely aipf. AA is quite a bit different as they are just so strong and they have a lot of blockers. Ax is known as a good 4 bet bluff hand due to the blocker potential so adding a second A is only going to make your hand extremely good at getting folds.
In the end I mean ya I can t really disagree with 4 betting the nuts preflop. If they are quite tight (under idk 7%?) I 4 bet almost always as I have very little of a calling range so don t feel a need to balance that. You also don t want to miss the chance for the cooler preflop.
This sure is one of those subjects where selective memory comes in!!!
You always feel like a fool when you flat AA IP and get outdrawn, but well sad that also a lot of times your stacking the lower end of their range when they flop a flush draw with sooted cards, straight draws and top pair.
I do think calling is a good way to punish over aggresive players that will play many flops fast and turns fast. And you also make a great point it helps make our bluffs credable.
This is a interesting spot to balance, but it looks like everyone agrees that if your flatting with them its vs a extremely Aggro player when your IP.
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