Facing 3Bets Both IP and OOP

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Facing 3Bets Both IP and OOP

ACR 25NL - about 1/3 of the time I face a 3bet regardless of my position. Mostly in the 3.5x-5x size range, with a few smaller ones.

Based on what I have seen from running sims in GTO+, it's not profitable to call these even when the villain's 3bet range is up to 15-20% (except with a range of roughly AQ, AJs, KQs, KJs, JJ-66). Even combined with a 4bet range including some bluffs, I can't see any way you could meet MDF with any recommended pre flop range that I have seen. I am guessing due to the high rake environment of 25NL and the large 3bet sizing. This is after factoring in 27% rake back btw...

Are we just relying on opponents to make big blunders to make our calls +EV - or are all the people I see calling wider in videos (suited broadways, suited aces, suited connectors) doing so because they're playing higher stakes where the rake has less impact? Or maybe I just need to be playing way tighter or just don't worry about meeting MDF? I am winning but barely ... like 1-2 bb/100 before rake back.

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Gino Song 3 years, 2 months ago

double check that 1/3 number because getting 3bet 1/3 of the time in any position means you are getting reraised waaay too wide and too frequent

even with the widest 3bet sb vs btn ranges, it shouldnt go up to 33%

find the sample size, i got a feeling it isnt accurate, most microsteaks pops are just passive rakeback grinding nits with 5% 3bet

disregard mdf and recommended pre flop ranges, defend what you are comfortable with

ten25 3 years, 2 months ago

Turns out my number was high. I do mean collectively btw - not from a single player. I do think there are tables where it gets that high though, with 2 aggressive regs in the blinds (or 3 behind when I am in the CO).

My sample is pretty high (2k hands UTG, 4K to 6.5K for the other positions). Here is the % of time I am facing a 3bet opening from each position when the pot was unopened.

SB - 11.5%
BTN - 22.5%
CO - 21.5%
MP - 23.5%
UTG - 24.5%

HawksWin 3 years, 2 months ago

Keep in mind that you have to divide those number by the number of players left to act. In you sample, your RFI+Face 3b from UTG is 24.5. There is MP/CO/BTN/SB/BB left to act. In this case, you would divide 24.5/5 and get a number which is 4.9%. This is the approximate range you are getting 3b by. On the BTN, you are facing 3bet of 22.5% by 2 remaining players for a range of @ 11% or so.

Those numbers are fairly consistent to what I have in my database also. Mine are 26% UTG, 23.5% MP, 21.4% CO, 17.5% BTN and 10.2% BB.

A good way to think about it to assume a 5% range when you face 3b UTG, a 6% range when you get 3b MP, 7% range when you get 3b CO and then 11% from BTN and SB respectively.

In general, you are going to want to slightly overfold in higher raked environments. A Standard UTG range is about 220 combos, if you fold @ 60% or so to 3b (I know it is an overfold) you will continue with like 88+, AQo+, AJs+ and KQs (that is 82 combos I believe). It is going to be hard to go wrong with that range. Remember, your "zero" winrate is the size of the open*100. So, a 2.5x open, your zero winrate is -250bb/100.

I would check your overall bb/100 when you RFI and Face 3b in aggregate and see how you are doing. If you are under -100bb/100, you are doing some things right. Also, filter it by position to see if you are getting wrecked in any certain position.

ten25 3 years, 2 months ago

Here are the numbers I am finding with all in EV adjustments ...

OOP Overall (EP through CO): -20bb/100
OOP Called (EP through CO): -10bb/100

OOP Overall (SB vs BB 3B): -185bb/100
OOP Called (SB vs BB 3B): -390bb/100

IP Overall (EP through BTN): -150bb/100
IP Called (EP through BTN): -210bb/100

This is actually a lot worse than I'd thought, because I wasn't filtering this spot correctly in HM3. Before noticing the filter wasn't correct, I thought I was doing okay defending. Somehow I play better OOP than IP, except for the blind vs blind spot. Weird.

Actually, found out I am getting wrecked to the tune of -500 bb/100 in the BTN v CO spot but doing okay or even really good calling in other spots (CO v MP +475bb/100).

You'd think that you would just set the 'relative position' to OOP or IP and then click the 'faced 3bet' filter - however the relative position filter only includes when there is a flop. Found a workaround to look at it properly (which is how I got the numbers above).

Definitely going to be doing some leak fixing. Mostly I am surprised that any of my calls are showing a profit because the post flop sims show only a small defense range as being +EV (i.e. a higher EV than the amount you would have to call).

HawksWin 3 years, 2 months ago

I would just filter for different regions of hands and try to narrow it down from there. Filter "call 3b" "66-22", "call 3b" "98s-54s", "call 3b" "Ax suited", etc. This should help you narrow things down. Usually the bleeding starts with the small PP's (at least where mine was worst).

spokerman 3 years, 2 months ago

What percent are you opening? Are you being exploited or are the opponents reckless?

ten25 3 years, 2 months ago

I would say being exploited at least in the BB vs SB spot and BTN vs CO spot. I'm also doing something wrong when calling IP.

My VPIP/PFR is about the same as a normal reg. (23/20 or so)

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