Do -ev spots exist in GTO?
Posted by oopsly
Posted by
oopsly
posted in
High Stakes
Do -ev spots exist in GTO?
Hello RIO,
I have a little discussion with a "friend", so i hope you guys can help.
Does -ev spots exist in GTO?
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When we start from the decision point, ignoring any dead money, meaning, a fold has an EV of zero - then NO, there are no -EV decisions in a GTO strategy.
I guess one of you guys (you or your "friend") talks about taking -EV decisions to support other parts of your range that might gain an even bigger EV. But that is plain wrong.
I'm the one who says that -ev spots dont exist in GTO.
He say the game is about -ev and +ev spots = 0EV
It's true that GTO is 0EV, but that dont mean there exist -ev spots.
He dont understand that playing e.g K4o in the BB for -75/100 is a +ev spot, not a -ev spot.
He says that a balancede range contains -ev and +ev hands, which, again, is wrong.
How the hell do i explain the idiot that? :D
I guess i hoped to get some RIO "celebrities" and very respected persons to agree with me.
That might help convince him.
Ty for the answer BigFiszh.
"It's true that GTO is 0EV"
This is not true.
So, if anyone plays the same strategy, GTO isn't = 0EV?
There is very many different GTO strategies that might be supperior to one another and therefore have very different ev :)
Your buddy and you are both right, yet you seem to just talk about different things. It's a matter of definition.
If the BB defends hands that end up with a negative EV in the tracker - yet being less than 100bb/100, so actually representing a +EV decision, than we have to make sure that we are talking about the same reference points:
That means, if we are talking about GTO strategies, we should settle the reference point. And the "strategy" (which we talk about when talking about GTO) usually means our decisions. The "decision" to post the big blind was no decision - hence it is dead money. It's not part of any strategy. So, before deciding what to do, when looking at K4o, the account of BB is reset, dead money does not count. If he folds, he makes an EV of zero - not -1bb. This should be your reference point - and when you both agree on that - then you are probably agreeing on the rest.
Again, it depends on how far you zoom out of the game. If we talk about me having AA and you sitting in the BB, then my best (GTO) strategy is to bet and your best strategy is to fold. My strategy is +EV in this moment, your strategy is -EV. But still it's maxEV - for you as well as for me. If you create a "game" where one player always has the SB and the other always the BB, then the SB inevidently will have a +EV situation, and the best (GTO) strategy for the BB will be somewhere in the middle between 0bb/100 and -100bb/100. If we talk about a rake-free game where SB and BB change positions after any hand - and play the exact same (GTO) strategy, then both will end up 0EV longterm.
=> The reference point is important.
Got clear?
I guess you meant the same thing? Otherwise I don't understand what you mean?
oh I kinda misread the first post i think, i thought he was saying everyone will have 0EV if they play GTO, ofc they will have 0EV if they play the exact same strategy.
I'm pretty sure that there is different GTO strategies (but not 100% so please correct me if I'm wrong BF). And by the nature of the strategies being different they will perform differently vs eachother aswell and have different EVs. I think one GTO strategy can beat another GTO strat in the longrun and therefore be supperior or "dominating" (but i know there is a set definition for this term and a GTO strat might not be dominated in any spot just by its definition so don't nail me down on that one, i mean it more in the common sense way).
Or BF am i wrong, is there only 1 GTO strategy that has perfect sizings and frequencies in every spot and every other perfectly balanced strategy would not be considered GTO because it might be able to unilaterilly increase it's EV by using different sizings and freqs?
Yes.
If I understand it correctly there is only 1 GTO strategy, with a lot of sizings, all perfectly balanced, we just can't figure it out. So what we can do is limit poker to 1-2-3 sizings postflop, it's kinda like we make rules for poker and then run a solver on this lot simpler game. By the definition of GTO it's impossible that anything would exploit it.. If there's "another" gto strategy which can, that simply means the previous one wasn't gto. :D
Technically it's possible that more than one GTO-strategy-pair (!!) exist, but in that case all have the same EV.
You can have different equilibriums with different payouts on pure strategies. The mixed strategy nash equilibrium relies on neutrality between payouts.
well on Will Tipton books, he says that some hands are played not at their max EV to balance the range, and increase your overall EV with your whole range
so MAYBE one hand can be EV- if you're whole range gain a lot EV by this
No. That is wrong. If that would be correct, than we are not talking about GTO - but about exploitive play.
You should re-read that section because he does not say that and you seem to be misunderstanding.
ok so there is 0 ev- spots in GTO 2 players?
Yeah, at least from the point of decision onwards. Like, if I play the BB in a HU-game, I am "doomed" to lose money, but once I count the blind as dead money that is already gone I can always fold - and be 0EV.
Now, to "prove" that, you have to keep in mind that a complete GTO nash equilibrium scenario means that both players could reveal their strategies to each other - and still nobody would or could change anything to increase his EV. Now if my current strategy contains -EV hands it would be easy for me to increase my EV - simply by eliminating those from my range. Right? Now, if I tell my opponent my new range he will adjust his range as well ... This means, we haven't reached Nash Equilibrium yet.
"Will Winaton 15 days ago
Yes.
If I understand it correctly there is only 1 GTO strategy, with a lot of sizings, all perfectly balanced, we just can't figure it out. So what we can do is limit poker to 1-2-3 sizings postflop, it's kinda like we make rules for poker and then run a solver on this lot simpler game. By the definition of GTO it's impossible that anything would exploit it.. If there's "another" gto strategy which can, that simply means the previous one wasn't gto. :D"
Claudico.
@BigFiszh
I think this is what you are saying but need confirmation.
When analyzing the EV of folding X hand in BB from a GTO perspective the EV always equals 0
but in real life folding it = -100/100BB so if you can play it and lose less than that amount, the EV will be positive by comparison.
Yes?
yes!
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