Dealing with overly agressive IP 3bers/ Is having a 4b shoving range viable?

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Dealing with overly agressive IP 3bers/ Is having a 4b shoving range viable?

Started this thread to get opinions on different strategies to counter overly aggressive IP 3bers and if developing a 4b shoving range is viable.

For example lets assume hero's position is CO (27% open) and he is 3b by the villain on the BTN at 10% in this dynamic.

I believe the widest his absolute "value" range could be is 4.68% {TT+, AQo+, AQs+}. We also know that villain is a competent reg and is flatting these hands pre some % of the time. So this is an estimation of what his 3b value range would look like BTN vs CO with weights attached: {TT(.5), JJ(.5), QQ(.75), KK(.9), AA(.9), AQo(.5), AQs(.5), AKo(.75), AKs(.9)}

This gives villain a true "value" 3b% of around 3.16%. If he's 3bing at 10% overall this means that villian will have to fold to a shove more than twice as often as he can call.

Hero has a 4b shoving range of {55-77,TT-JJ} which has 40% equity when called.

Assuming 5.10 blinds. $25 Open from hero and $100 3b from villian

EV=F($POT)+C(%W$W)-C(%L$L)
F+C=100%
F=.66
C=.33

EV=.66(140)+.33(.41040)-.33(.6975)
EV=($92.4+137.28)- 193.05

EV=+$36.63

If these assumption are correct our 4b shoving range yields us +3.63BBs.

To me this seems like a good result because the 55-77 portion of our range is very difficult to play. It seems too nitty to fold to someone 3bing this much, way to spewey to 4b/call and too difficult to play post flop to open/ call 3b.

Why not have a OOP 4b shove range against villains who simply have too many wide 3bs IP if we can show a profit? Is this strategy of developing a 4b shove range just too transparent and easy to adjust to? Interested to hear your thoughts.

8 Comments

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DatpKay 8 years, 1 month ago

Well, when your assumptions are correct 100% and the math is not flawed then yes, of course it is +EV
But the question in poker (especially nowadays) should not be if something is +EV but what line is maximum EV

You simply want to make your life easier because you don't want to face tough postflop decisions... which is exactly what makes 3betting (rather) wide with position a good strategy and is not "overly" agressive per se.

In a vacuum your strategy is fine but if he is competent and agressive as you call him he'll figure your knew strategy out and adjust accordingly and then exploit you.

Note that your strategy is an exploitative one (given the exact math to his CURRENT 'exact' ranges) and therefore far from GTO/being unexploitable yourself.

First thing you can do is to look at his fold to 4b as BU vs hero stat.
If you have enough sample size and it is ~>65% you may have auto profit 4b spots.
The higher it is the more polarised his range will be and the lower it is the more linear it will usually be and you can then adjust your calling/4b ranges accordingly.
You don't punish a wide 3better by giving him rather easy decisions with ~70% of his range, you punish him by calling more preflop and being sticky postflop.

aamadeo 8 years, 1 month ago

Not necessarily just calling. If you think his 3beting range is X, and given your 4bet size, what portion of his range must continue, against that range, what are your hands that have 50% or more eq, those are your 4bet/call (4bet value range) add some bluffs to balance and you have a widen 4bet range against that wide 3bet range.

ecomommy 8 years, 1 month ago

"You don't punish a wide 3better by giving him rather easy decisions with ~70% of his range, you punish him by calling more preflop and being sticky postflop."

Our aim is max +EV, not imposing max "pain" or "decision difficulty" on the villain. So if 4bing wide results in max EV, who cares if V can easily muck 70% of his range? We want him to muck it and muck it fast.

And very few people will exploit us by 5betting enough. People just tend to lack balls.

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