Cold Call 3 Bet in BB vs SB vs Btn spots

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Cold Call 3 Bet in BB vs SB vs Btn spots

Hello, What do you think about having a cold calling range in BB after a 3 bet from sb vs btn. Pokersnowie has always a cold Calling range in this spot except when the sb sizing is big?

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iamallin 5 years, 11 months ago

This is the widest 3 bet spot in ring games. 40% open and anywhere from 10 to 15% 3 bet. It's fine to have a flat calling range here imo.

In aggresive games this might induce 2 types of mistakes
1. Button could overcall too wide or 4 bet too aggresively.
2. Sb may make over aggresive mistakes postflop against your cold call. Cbetting too wide. He has 15% of hands while you have less than 5%.

Lezaleas 5 years, 11 months ago

I really don't understand which hand gains that much by cold calling over raising that makes you feel the need to develop a cold calling range. Like which combo is doing considerably better than a bluffcatcher and isn't better off raising?

I'm talking about equilibrium here

iamallin 5 years, 11 months ago

That would be unsolved I assume? 3 way preflop equillibiurm is very non trivial. Snowie is just spitting out results of iterated experiments.

Lezaleas 5 years, 11 months ago

Ok yeah, that's true, but we still have to take a decision every time it's on us. Which combos of hands do we suspect of wanting to cold call?

BarracudaNL 5 years, 11 months ago

Many hands here are really nice cold calls. Think of hands like 88-TT, ATs-AQs, KQs, maybe some more hands like AQo and KJs depending on stack sizes, antes, and sizings. These hands play nicely as coldcalls because they dominate the SB's three-bet range a lot and play fine multiway, but they tend to be dominated themselves once you 4bet and get action.

Jeff_ 5 years, 11 months ago

I would add any hand basically that dominate(and plays well) SB's three-bet range but doesn't want to see all-in. Anytime we see shove we have to fold our equity and nothing we can do about it, that really hurts their EV.
But it is all arguably... What options is better 4bet or cold-call depending on opponent or stack size

Lezaleas 5 years, 11 months ago

There's very little value on dominating our opponent weaker holdings. So when we look at TT we have 60% eq and we are really strong vs 99-22 etc. But we have 35% against the top of the SB range, which is the range that will give us action. And on any overcard it gets even worse. So let's be lenient and say that we win half the pot whenever we call with TT IP. We pay 7bb to win half of the 18bb resulting pot if the btn folds, so we win 9bb. But the btn should 4bet around 10% of the time so we are only winning around 1bb with our cold call. I'm pretty sure TT can win more than 1bb by raising when compared to our worst 4bet bluff so I'd rather raise. And TT is like the prime candidate for a call, everything else is doing worse. So yeah I don't see how we can start developing a calling range, we are simply being offered horrible pot odds, not closing the action, and any hand that can call is better off raising.
It's also really bad to have a small calling range that's too face up, we can't continue with just TT-99 and Ajs or something like that, we need to have many types of hands and all of those combined need to be played better this way, which means our TT and similar need to be strong enough to carry whatever we also call for balance

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 11 months ago

Should BB use a polarized 4bet range in this spot KK+ AK+ A3s-A5s? Then cold call other hands or just 4bet all of them? I feel like getting 5 bet with hands 99-QQ, AQs kinda sucks.

BigFiszh 5 years, 11 months ago

Agree with Lezaleas. Just play 5 mins with CREV and try to find a range that is better off by calling instead of raising. Even if you only shove/fold, calling is worse for almost any combo.

BarracudaNL 5 years, 11 months ago

I'm noticing quite some people here arguing Snowie is wrong. While Snowie is imperfect due to its sizing limitations and because we can observe oddities in spots it has not trained much, it tends to produce quite similar results to Pio / Monker in spots that it has come across frequently, and I would assume this is one of them.

So I'd be curious if anyone here can give me some insight as to why Snowie is given so little credit for its recommendation for coldcalling here.

Demondoink 5 years, 11 months ago

I don't think it's terrible, and can actually be good when you have a weak fish who has opened and is very splashy and you want to keep him in the pot without cold 4 betting.

however, from the positions you mentioned I believe that it is best to cold 4 bet or fold, because vs good regulars your range will be very transparent to perhaps TT-88 and then the odd AQ/AJs. you also end up letting in the button player to the hand who is also able to easily identify your range and cause you problems on certain flop textures. and by allowing him in to the pot easily as well (he would have to fold all but the top 3-4% of his opening range vs a cold 4bet) he is taking some of the EV away from your range because he is IP and we end up playing OOP on all subsequent streets. which isn't the case if we cold 4bet, we end up playing IP or end up with very trivial call/fold decision vs all ins.

the pro's are that, again, if IP is a fish we are happy to let him in to the pot, and if the sb ends up playing very straight forward by x folding a bunch when he misses the flop, and betting when he hits, then it is pretty easy to play vs him.

so I guess you should never be so closed minded as to say, I will NEVER cold flat a 3bet, but I would say that your default, from these positions especially vs a very wide 3 betting range, should be to cold 4bet/fold.

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