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Calculating correct bluff to value ratio (overbluffing)

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Calculating correct bluff to value ratio (overbluffing)

So im wondering how one I can figure out the math behind how many bluff combos to value combos so im not overbluffing.

I thought it was that you wanted to put how many ever bluffs in your range to what pot odds youre offering opponent.
For example, if im betting half pot & giving opp 2:1, opponent would then therefore need to win atleast 33.3% to break even so id want my bluff to value range contain 66% bluffs and 33% value bets.

But after watching one of Doug Polls videos for example on YouTube, it appears im figuring something wrong.

in a particular spot in the video Polk states using about 4 or 5 combos out of about 26 value betting combos ( about 20% ) in the particular hand hes in, yet hes betting 14k into a 11k pot, giving opponent just less then 2:1 or about 36 % well say.
So obviously im making a mistake on something here as bluffing 4 or 5 combos would contain only about 15-19% bluffs instead of the 64% hes giving his opponent according to pot odds ...

The video is called "feuding poker players fight over a 100 k pot" Doug Polk on youtube if anyone wants to further clarify this specific spot im questioning.The part im talking about specifically starts at 10:17
Thx

12 Comments

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Shaun Pauwels 4 years, 2 months ago

opponent would then therefore need to win atleast 33.3% to break even so id want my bluff to value range contain 66% bluffs and 33% value bets.

If you have 66% bluffs then your opponent is winning 66% off the time. You'd want 33% bluffs.

The formula would be betsize/(pot+betsize+betsize). I suggest learning some breakpoints by heart

50% potsize bet: 25% bluffs
75% potsize bet: 30% bluffs
100% potsize bet: 33.33% bluffs
150% potsize bet: 37.5% bluffs

Any sizing in between those you can estimate while playing. Knowing these 4 will give you a good feel for it. It also helps to decide if your opponent is bluffing enough or not in specific spots.
Do keep in mind that this does not keep in mind future play. If these betsizes are done with more action possible (such as on the flop) then the frequencies are not so easy to calculate.

SikBluffBruh 4 years, 2 months ago

Well if thats the case, then why in Polks hand does he state bluffing 4 or 5 combos out of 26, meaning only bluffing 15-19% on a pot sized bet when youre stating you should have 33.3% bluffs in a pot sized bet?

Also, on the flip side what is the math behind over-calling?

For ex, with top pairs\mid pair\low pair etc, youre going to call some but fold others, examples of better ones to call with may be higher kickers\blockers etc,
But how can we figure out the math behind the total amount needed to call before one can claim youre over-calling?

Thanks for your response

SikBluffBruh 4 years, 2 months ago

" Do keep in mind that this does not keep in mind future play. If these betsizes are done with more action possible (such as on the flop) then the frequencies are not so easy to calculate. "

If turn and river bet are both full pot bets would it just be .33x.33? ....... (11%)??

PierreNormand 4 years, 2 months ago

What lIlCitanul said.

I watched the video by Doug Polk that you referenced. I'm not sure exactly why Polk thought that he should bluff with 4 or 5 combos in this river spot. However, his main concern (at this point in his explanation) was to avoid ending up at the river with a range that contains many more bluffs than he can profitably bet. In that case, he would have to give up on most of them (and hence waste his turn bet) or, else, bet them all and potentially become very exploitable. So, the bet to pot ratio on this turn isn't the relevant consideration. Instead, Polk is concerned with his anticipated range composition on the river. It's on the river, when the ranges of both players approximate closely enough an ideal "polar versus bluff catcher" situation, that the minimum defense frequency formula can be applied to determining the proportion of your range that you can bluff while staying balanced (and hence, unexploitable).

SikBluffBruh 4 years, 2 months ago

" However, his main concern (at this point in his explanation) was to avoid ending up at the river with a range that contains many more bluffs than he can profitably bet. "

Well how is he figuring this out ? Is this just manual math hes done in specific spots over and over and just memorized it or???

Do you know the formula to go about figuring something like this out?

If both turn and river bet is full pot would it just be .33x.33? ....(11%)?

PierreNormand 4 years, 2 months ago

There isn't any useful minimum defense frequency on the flop or turn since range interactions with the board evolve when more community cards are dealt. Range and nuts advantage shift or get equalized, and there is no useful approximation to a multi-street static polar v bluff catcher situation. This is why solver study is useful for trying to devise simplifying heuristics applicable to broadly characterized spots : e.g. how to double barrel on paired board in single raised pots in position against loose callers, etc. A short and enlightening explanation why the minimum defense frequency formula is very limited in its applications apart from some specific river spots (or some toy games with numbers, with no card removal effects) has been given by punter11235 (who is a developer of Pio Solver) on the 2+2 support thread for the software:

Punter11235 on MDF

SikBluffBruh 4 years, 2 months ago

Is your last response Pierre in regards to my over-calling question? Bc there definetely is a known frequency to over calling, I just dont know how to go about figuring out the math behind what it is. However you will definetly hear players make statements like "if you start calling with x hands youre going to be over calling too much"..
Its the same statement used as over bluffing but the opposite obviously

PierreNormand 4 years, 2 months ago

Figuring out exactly the math of what those calling or betting frequencies ought to be can't be any easier than computing the Nash equilibria (GTO strategies). The algorithms for approximating those aren't very complex (although they require many iterations) but they don't reduce to simple formulas except for the case of some simplified toy games. At best we can find some heuristics, or simplified rules, for determining how many bluffs, or semi-bluffs, or bluff-catchers, we can have on the flop or turn, and what hands are the best candidates because of their implied odds, blockers, need for protection, etc.

I'm pretty sure when strong players give advice about over-calling or over-bluffing (or under-bluffing) they don't base that on mathematical formulas but rather on their experience toying with solvers and anticipating how their range constructions will carry them to reasonably well understood and favorable river spots. Ben Sulsky and Uri Peleg (among others) have some videos that explain how to use solvers efficiently to build such intuitions. If your subscription is 'Essential', look at the videos of Peter Clarke and Qing Yang. For the theory, you can delve into Andrew Brokos "Plays Optimal Poker 1 & 2", or Will Tipton's "Expert Heads Up No Limit Hold'em 1 & 2". In both of those you will find formulas that apply to more complex toy games giving insight into real hold'em poker situation if that's what you're looking for.

BigFiszh 4 years, 2 months ago

There's no such thing as "minimum" defense frequency anways. That's an as common as misleading term. It should be named "optimal defense frequency".

Too much is as bad as to little.

:-)

Besides that I agree with Pierre on the theoretical aspect, but I disagree on not existing "short formulas". It's very well possible to define general rules for calling / betting frequencies even with more cards to come, if we accept a certain error margin.

rickybobby1 3 years, 5 months ago

Doug Polk is a beast and he for sure memorized the right bluff to value ratios amd has done a ton of work with his postflop strategy to know proper turn bluff ratios which are roughly 1:1 to set up optimal river bluffing frequencies. He’s worked out the best hands and give up etc.

Sauce123 3 years, 5 months ago

He probably misspoke or you misunderstood something. Bluff:value ratios aren't hard to calculate as we've seen in this thread

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