Bankroll Building Advice Please
Posted by BigDickPlaya
Posted by
BigDickPlaya
posted in
Low Stakes
Bankroll Building Advice Please
I made two deposits on two different sites playing 5nlz and 10nl under rolled. Quickly I've tripled and doubled them. I also have another deposit on a third site. How would you go about things right now? Keep playing on the site I find the easiest and see how much I can put away, or protect these rolls which give me a great launching point, while adding volume on a third site? The third site I have barely put any volume on does allow real time hud data that I can track and share so the educational value of it is indeed more and the hands are much easier to dissect. One site I'm on now doesn't allow huds/tracking and the other is an anonymous zool pool. The third is a nice semi-pro network that also has a large sportsbook and the best software available to Americans. This is is my smallest roll right now. There are actually two other networks I could deposit on, as well but I don't think I need to further complicate decisions right now.
Thanks!
edit: I should also note that the network I have the least volume on, is BetOnline which has the best software/promos/etc. It just might not be as soft as Ignition or Global right now. I have rakeback on WPN but I currently am not playing there...as much as I'm itching to.
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Screw volume for the time being. Just put all the money on whichever site is:
a) the softest AND
b) lets you get hand histories to load in tracking software.
You do it this way because the most effective way to increase the rate at which you make money is to by becoming a better player and moving up in stakes.
Once you have done that, start at the lowest stakes they offer. Play 10k hands and then put your winrate and standard deviation from your tracking software into this variance calculator. If you the amount you have in your bankroll is bigger than the bankroll it calculates for you, feel free to move up. If not, keep playing at the current stake and re-run the calculation however often you like to. Assuming you are not a losing or perfectly breakeven player you will eventually hit a point where either your winrate or your bankroll grows enough to move up. Just keep repeating this at every stake that you play.
Some miscellaneous points:
1) I am assuming that you are employed and that the money in your bankroll doesn't represent some significant amount of your total available money. If I am wrong then devote time and effort to job hunting and getting your finances in order instead of poker.
2) Some people will insist that 10k is too small of a sample to mean anything. Technically they are correct, but it doesn't really matter in this situation. Assuming that the above point is true you don't need to have some accurate calculation of your winrate, you just want to have some objective reference point to get an idea of whether or not you are a losing or winning player.
3) When calculating bankroll requirements, use your All-In EV Adjusted winrate, it is closer to correct most of the time.
4) Also, if you have zero hands for the next stake you will be moving to the use the hands for your current highest stake. If you have some hands of the one you will be moving to (for example if you took a shot and had to move back down) include the hands from both stakes in your winrate calculation.
5) There is literally no benefit aside from bragging rights in building a bankroll only from your winnings at the microstakes level. I did that pre Black Friday and while it was a nice point of pride I see no reason to do it now. If you are a handful of buy-ins short of the next level and you can work it out in your budget, feel free to just make a deposit.
6) While it is tempting to bonus whore, don't worry about it for right now. Hold off until you have a much bigger roll so you can max out initial deposit bonuses later.
7) Get rakeback if at all possible, even if you have to go to a different site to do it. As an example, while I am working back up through stakes right now, rakeback is about 23% of my winrate. It's a big difference in how much money is going into your bankroll and playing without it is counter-productive to your goal.
sjfraley1975
Great post!
sjfraley1975 Thank you so much for your post. Hugely informative and helpful. I'm only getting back to you now because I had to sleep and take care of some life stuff before sitting back down to the game here this early morning.
Unfortunately, I am not employed nor do I have much money to work with right now. I've had other times where I was in a better position financially but a) I wasn't winning like this then and b) I wasn't the same person mentally back then. So, it's basically a coin toss between just being a much better player now and having less money to work with. That was the point of this month, though: Sit down with a few small deposits on sites and see what I could grind up literally from zero. So far, better than ever.
Ignition and Global are very soft. That's where I'm winning. I've never found getting paid off to be easier and that's not just because I'm playing better it's that these guys are legitimately paying off lighter than they have in years. Global allows no huds or tracking software, Ignition is a zoom pool so I have to manually import sessions 24 hours after they're played, and BetOnline has huds, software, the works but is definitely harder than those other two networks.
WPN has PT4 and rakeback. Further, the last time I played there, it was also very soft and has both reg tables and zoom running 24/7. This is probably the best place for me according to what you said but yet it will require a new deposit as I have $.33 sitting there and that's it. I could, of course, do what you said and just withdraw from the other sites and put it all on WPN but that would require a break of a few days while waiting on the payouts. I could also just throw like $50 on WPN right now and then just see how it goes, only using the other funds if necessary. Either way, it's much better to be winning than losing, of course. By next month, to start 2021, I'll have a few more $ to work with and hopefully even some more winnings from here in December by then. That said, I'm experienced enough now to not have expectations of continued profit and understand how sharply things could turn negative. To be honest, I of course never expected to put away BI's that quickly here nor was I planning to give poker this big, 100% push again right now. It's just the way it worked out and I think it would be silly to not pursue it and see where it goes. I'm actually enjoying studying and using software again lately, too which I have not in a handful of years.
Ok, so I'm basically broke otherwise now but I just put ~$50 on WPN. This allows me to use PT4, accrue rakeback, and post/discuss hands - as well as track my progress - the easiest. I'll leave BOL alone right now. It seems like I can beat 5nlz on Ignition and 10nl on Global so let's see how I do on WPN, too. I think I can beat up to 10nl or even the 10nlz pool on there.
Sounds like a plan. With $50 I would definitely start at 2NL though.
This is my 5NL graph from my most recent run through 5NL. Even with a nice winrate there is still a ~1600bb downswing in there. Just start at 2NL and follow the process I laid out above. Assuming you are a solid winner at 2NL and 5NL it won't be that long until you are comfortably rolled for 10NL.
Another thing I didn't mention before was about moving down. Whenever you move up to the next stake, calculate your minimum bankroll based on your current winrate for the stake you are moving up from and note it somewhere. If a downswing takes you to this number or lower you move down to the next appropriate stake and start rebuilding again, this time with the losing hands from the stake you just had to move down from included in calculating the winrate.
I play WPN is definitely beatable, I have just ground up from 2NL to 25NL in about 40k hands and I don't even get to play lot during prime time (I play mostly from around 11PM to 2AM EST). I decided this time to stay away from the Blitz tables and instead 4 table normal tables so I can focus on table selection.
I should also mention that where a lot of the advice comes from is lessons learned from pre Black Friday. I got $50 to play on Party Poker from a site called PartyStakers back in late 2006 and built that up from 2NL to 200NL using the 20 buy-in guideline over the course of 2007, and then after having to cash out my whole roll for a life emergency had to build again from about $20 (I used my FPPs on PokerStars for satellite entries, unregistered, and sold the T$ to get that $20) and then rebuilt up to $2k using a 10 buy-in strategy and learned a lot of lessons from both runs. I think what I laid out above is probably the best system to balance making sure you have a comfortable enough roll to play confident, aggressive poker but being aggressive enough with how fast you move up that you aren't wasting time grinding out any given stake more than you need to.
Managing your roll too aggressively (like with my 10 BI strategy) leads to a lot of moving up then dropping back down. First, this is just frustrating and leads to the downswings taking a toll mentally more than they should. Second, it leads to frequently feeling the need to start getting more timid in an attempt to hold onto what you have already won when one moderately bad session can kill half your bankroll and force you to move down.
Managing it too conservatively results in too much time making less per hour than you otherwise can because you are focusing on padding out your bankroll for a bigger cushion when you move up. I think using the variance calculator solves a lot of this by using what you know about how much of a winner you are so far to be able to help you find the sweet spot.
So, to keep things orderly and spot on:
--I have ~10 BI's for 10NL on Global Poker. They don't offer cash games lower than 10nl to start, but do jump to 20nl instead of 25nl which is a nice chance to move up sooner.
--I have $50 on WPN. They do offer 2nl, 5nl, and 10nlz.
--I have ~5 BI's for 10nl on BOL. They don't offer lower than that in cash games.
--I Have 12 BI's for 5nlz on Ignition.
I didn't read your last until already putting in a quick WPN session at 5nl (profitable). I do have an additional ~1k coming in from my last job by the end of the year. It's not like what i have here is all I'm working with permanently. Just for the next few weeks. Are you basically saying to take what I've won on Ignition and Global already as a gift, keep it there for now, and just grind WPN and post hands? And should I really play as low as 2nl on WPN, considering I do have money to take off the other sites and do have money coming in at the end of the month? It's tough to not go put in time on Ignition and Global again considering that they were literally just handing the money over, you know?
I see your crazy downswing in there and that's part of what's helped my mental game here early is that I've spent time reviewing other's graphs and discussions about downswings. It's really hard to win, no matter how good you are, and I get that. On a side note: I've never spent much time on tournaments or SNG's but I would think cherry picking a few MTT's and/or playing in one of the daily free rolls couldn't hurt, could it?
edit: I should mention that the only study material I have access to is forums, youtube, CORE 2.0 on RCP, and my software (all the main software except PIO but I do have GTO+). I'll see if I can squeeze in an essential here to go along with it and then next month pick back up on something pricier and more advanced.
I will be the first to admit that the number one rule of being a winning poker player is this: play people who suck at it more than you do. I would just work to get the all the money on whatever site you decide to set up shop on.
If Ignition is really soft and lets you get hand histories to import so that you can study your game then it's definitely an option worth considering. My main issue with them is the lack of rakeback but that may be made up for by how soft the games are. The key thing is to be able to have something to import into whatever tracker software you use so you can do session reviews and know what your actual winrate and standard deviation are when it comes time to calculate your bankroll.
If you decide that you will be sticking with Ignition long term then you may still want to play enough on WPN to meet your playthrough requirements (and possibly clear some or all of your deposit bonus if you have one) so you can take that money and put it on Ignition.
Whichever you do I would still put at least 10k hands in on the lowest stake of the games you will be playing so you can start getting the data needed to plan future bankroll calculations. Playing two fast-fold tables (zoom, blitz, zone, etc.) that can easily be done in about a week's worth of play or less. I think it is better to waste a few days playing 10k hands at the bottom, have some solid numbers to work off of, and then move up than it is to have the first big downswing make you realize that your winrate is anemic and you were just running really hot for a minute and should actually be working with a bigger roll.
With money coming in soon that makes your actual amount on the sites now less important since you can replenish if you hit a bad run. Once again I would still start at the lowest and work up with a minimum of 10k hands per stake just to confirm that you are a solid winner at each before moving up.
While I really like the videos here (I have essential) and constantly get good info to work with from them, they aren't necessary at this level. Review your sessions, post hands either to help you figure out non-obvious spots or for a sanity check, and spend time with GTO+ and it's play vs. the solver mode to drill various nodes and situations. Make sure to post on other people's hands (I have been slacking on this and I should start practicing what I preach). I think a tracker, a solver, and maybe something like flopzilla are all the software that count as must have and when combined with a forum that has enough winners willing to share info you can definitely get past the micros.
Absolutely feel free to switch it up. Play some Omaha or Stud, do some SNGs or an MTT on occasion. Hell, in the past (like 13 years ago in the past) I have done stuff like sit down at a 2NL table and just shove every hand (My BR was $5k at the time). We are micro and SSNL players, we need to remember that at this level we should be still having some fun in this whole bit, even if we take our fun seriously.
sjfraley1975 I like a lot of what you just wrote because it answers all of my questions but also reminds me strongly not to get ahead of myself - which I have in the past. I have a history of a mental game that's horrendous at times.
I just played a few hundred hands of 2nl and am down almost three BI's lol. I dumped one by trying to three table (I usually two table) although many would call it a "cooler" (flopped nut straight I checked b/c of time vs river'd boat). I played it terribly though and the more I am playing, the more I dislike the term "cooler" as we could almost always have done something better.
These WPN games are ridiculous compared to the other networks. Tons of other guys clearly doing the same thing I'm doing overnight and playing like 27/27/13, 30/23/15, etc. Rounding things off, I played 295 hands of 2nl at 27/20/10. I like that the lower stakes allow me to play hands that I'm not usually comfortable playing in different spots, and open my game up a bit aggressively. It's a discount price on learning and experiencing a ton.
Playing these games and knowing that I am holding my head above water almost no matter what based on those previous winnings is a good feeling. I'll dip back into 5nlz on Ignition and maybe even some of those 10nl Global games and see if I remain hot (maybe) but I'll focus my time on WPN and study heavily this month. With the right approach, I could set myself up for a great start to 2021. When it comes to the rec networks...I have honestly never seen or heard of softer play than I'm seeing on Ignition and Global currently. I guess between the pandemic, the winter, and the holidays, this is a really good time to be taking hands and studying the latest theory.
edit: WPN has "bomb pots" now and some of the 5nl and 2nl hands I've taken are from those games. It obviously increases variance and I'm not sure if they're worth it at these stakes but it is most definitely fun. Related - BOL has antes, jackpot boost, and jackpot ante boost now.
Glad I could help. Bomb Pots are another reason to track the hands well. The effect of the variance will be measured by the standard deviation and the bankroll calculation will reflect that.
Things continue to go very well and playing at only 2nl and 5nlz for right now has been great for me. I'm developing my game, getting in a lot of hands, and making pure decisions not based on the money at all. I'm having more fun than ever before. As others who have seen me melt down on here previously can attest, it would be kind of unthinkable prior that I'd have any interest in playing in stakes this low. As it is, I'm so well rolled my ror is nice and small.
I know I can sit and crush those 10nl games on Global any time and I do have 10 BI's on there now. It's tempting although right now I'm putting in work at 2nl bomb pots on WPN w/ PT4 running. I'm getting to work on increasing my 3betting, how I handle 4 bet pots in general, and my postflop bluff raising ranges. Obviously, all things that I'll be glad I worked on once playing at higher stakes again. In the end, I did get an essential here for this month and I'm looking at pricier, more advanced learning options for next month. I need to get my shit together for stakes like 20nl, 25nl, and 25nlz.
I'm glad to hear it. You said you have GTO+, I have found that running some sims of 3B and 4B pots then using the trainer helped me get a lot more comfortable with them. There is also a Skype group that was set up to share GTO+ solves. I can't remember if it is invite required or not. I will check.
I had to sit a 10nl game just now (the play is so terrible) and after a few hours I'm up about 70 bb's. I made the worst play I've made this month with JJ overpair on the flop and lost ~90bb's and then just ground things back up. Amazing how the mental game can slip and how quickly you can get hurt for it. It certainly woke me up. I have no reason to be making bad plays and doing anything crazy right now as the bankroll continues to grow and I'm just playing relatively standard TAG or LAG depending upon the table.
I'm terrible when it comes to GTO+ lol. I need a lot of work on it. I know how to set up the basics and run vs the computer hands range vs range, but the more advanced features are just foreign to me. Where's a good place to start really figuring out what I'm doing with it?
sjfraley1975
The variance calculator: I am assuming BB = bet bets which is 2x big blind.
So I run the default values and get 5991 BB, which is 3000 big blinds. Multiply that by the big blind for the stake I am playing and that comes out to about 30 BI backroll, is this correct?
It is big blinds but putting it in as big bets and then halving the required bankroll calculation works out to the same number so yes, it is about a 30 BI bankroll.
I posted my Ignition 5nlz graph in another thread. This one is from two and three tabling 2nl bomb pots on wpn.
Good job!
Last night was crazy lol. I played nothing but 2nl bomb pots for about 8 hours straight and 1,000+ hands. I finished up about a buyin but was almost four down at one point. These bomb pots lead to a lot of wild variance and all in all - I can't believe how much fun I've had playing 2nl lately lol.
I have 2,361 hands played @ 2nl bomb pots and I'm winning at 15.35 bb/100. With rakeback, I'm up about 4 buyins total and just cruising along. Mental game, volume, stamina, and level of enjoyment are all at all time highs.
I'm going to go sit 5nlz in a few and see how that goes again. I have a 53 bb/100 winrate in that pool over 2,000 hands and this pool is softer than 2nl on WPN. I've left my bol and global bankrolls sitting right where they are. My mental game is getting pretty sharp and my bankroll is getting deeper so I'm feeling really good about things right now.
Good luck, you can get some pretty good winrates in 5z on stars.pt/es/fr (I had 11bb/100 when I played it) so I assume you can get even crazier ones on the sites you play! (53 might be pushing it tho :p)
Mudkip Have you any experience in the 25nlz pool on Ignition? It jumps straight from 5nlz to 25nlz so I would imagine it's pretty soft compared to other zoom pools on different networks.
Nop, never played ignition, but I'd suggest getting a good sample at 5z before moving up, specially a 5x stakes jump, gotta make sure you're ready and it can get expensive fast if you aren't
Mudkip lol - no worries. I have no desire to jump up there just yet. Not at all. I was just curious. No, I'm doing this the right way this time and staying in the game long term.
Just put away another buyin on 5z. Unbelievably soft and fast games.
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software - http://drivehud.com
NL Holdem 0.05(BB)
SB ($4.70) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($10.23) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.1% | AGG: 32% | Hands: 2443]
UTG ($4.04) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
HJ ($16.92) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
CO ($9.34) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
BTN ($5.27) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
Dealt to Hero: Ks Kd
UTG Raises To $0.15, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.50, UTG Raises To $4.04 (allin), HERO Calls $3.54
Flop ($8.10): 3c Ah Kc
Turn ($8.10): 3c Ah Kc Qd
River ($8.10): 3c Ah Kc Qd 3d
UTG shows: Tc Ts
HERO wins: $7.70
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software - http://drivehud.com
NL Holdem 0.05(BB)
CO ($5.46) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
BTN ($1.59) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
SB ($16.63) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 33.3% | Flop Agg: 0% | Turn Agg: 0% | River Agg: 100% | 3-Bet: 0% | 4-Bet: 0% | Cold Call: 100% | Hands: 1]
BB ($5.62) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
UTG ($14.04) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($7.94) [VPIP: 22.2% | PFR: 16.1% | AGG: 32% | Flop Agg: 34.9% | Turn Agg: 36% | River Agg: 18.6% | 3-Bet: 6.3% | Fold to 3-Bet: 70.4% | 4-Bet: 11.3% | Hands: 2443]
Dealt to Hero: Qh Qs
UTG Raises To $0.13, HERO Raises To $0.45, CO Folds, BTN Folds, SB Calls $0.43, BB Folds, UTG Folds
Hero SPR on Flop: [6.94 effective]
Flop ($1.08): 2c 9s 5d
SB Checks, HERO Bets $0.40 (Rem. Stack: $7.09), SB Calls $0.40 (Rem. Stack: $15.78)
Turn ($1.88): 2c 9s 5d 2d
SB Checks, HERO Checks
River ($1.88): 2c 9s 5d 2d 3s
SB Bets $1.34 (Rem. Stack: $14.44), HERO Calls $1.34 (Rem. Stack: $5.75)
SB shows: Th Ah
HERO wins: $4.34
Not the best session. Timed out in a mw pot with a set of 666's where stacks were going to go in. Then this:
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software - http://drivehud.com
NL Holdem 0.05(BB)
HJ ($13.15) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
CO ($14.69) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Flop Agg: 0% | Turn Agg: 0% | River Agg: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | 4-Bet: 0% | Cold Call: 100% | Hands: 1]
HERO ($5.17) [VPIP: 22.6% | PFR: 16.4% | AGG: 32.3% | Flop Agg: 35.8% | Turn Agg: 36.2% | River Agg: 17.3% | 3-Bet: 6% | 4-Bet: 10.7% | Cold Call: 17.1% | Hands: 2617]
SB ($5.80) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
BB ($7.69) [VPIP: 0% | PFR: 0% | AGG: 0% | Hands: 1]
UTG ($6.14) [VPIP: 100% | PFR: 100% | AGG: 66.7% | Flop Agg: 100% | Turn Agg: 100% | River Agg: 0% | 3-Bet: 0% | 4-Bet: 0% | Hands: 1]
Dealt to Hero: Kh Ac
UTG Raises To $0.15, HJ Folds, CO Calls $0.15, HERO Calls $0.15, SB Folds, BB Folds
Hero SPR on Flop: [9.65 effective]
Flop ($0.52): 7h Ah 2s
UTG Bets $0.38 (Rem. Stack: $5.61), CO Calls $0.38 (Rem. Stack: $14.16), HERO Raises To $1 (Rem. Stack: $4.02), UTG Calls $0.62 (Rem. Stack: $4.99), CO Calls $0.62 (Rem. Stack: $13.54)
Turn ($3.52): 7h Ah 2s Ts
UTG Bets $4.99 (allin), CO Calls $4.99 (Rem. Stack: $8.55), HERO Calls $4.02 (allin)
River ($17.52): 7h Ah 2s Ts Jc
CO shows: Ad Jd
UTG shows: As Js
UTG wins: $8.33
CO wins: $8.32
Afterwards, the entire pool started leaving except for 3 or 4 other players who were unlike anything I had played against in the pool thus far. It started being nothing but 3 handed against 2 super aggressive short stacking players. I had to just leave the pool for now. Let's be honest - that's a pretty joke two outter with them blocking each other like that. These are the kinds of hands that bother me. These two were legitimately outplayed here.
BigDickPlaya
It seems short-term results affect you, have you tried to not check results for days? This will help you to play your best since thus, build a roll quicker, assuming you are a winning player.
Right now I check them every week and I feel some kind of relief.
If you haven't tried, please take a shot at it. You can begin to avoid open PT4 for a day, then 2 days and so on.
If you have problems and you watch results are you play, I can share my script with you, which hide PT4 during the session. Let me know
Ok, so I haven't been able to implement what you're suggesting (and is often suggested by players who know) to the full extent but I have certainly improved in this area. Deeper bankroll = much easier to do this, of course. When bankroll building, starting with only a few buyins, things need to be measured out a bit more...almost like bubble time at a tournament. Maybe that's a bad analogy but you need to take your overall financial situation into account more when playing hands and can't help but monitor your +/- for a session. I know many players would simply move down to lower stakes where they have more buyins, or simply not play at all until they get some money together otherwise but...that's not what I did here this time around.
Next step: No looking for a whole day. After that, we'll work on going longer without monitoring results. I'm sure it will be extremely eye opening and beneficial.
As for my bankroll building as a whole up to this point: Things have stuck this time. I really do mean it when I say I've never stopped maturing and changing as a person since I started playing 7 years ago now and it's been a very long haul. Right now, I'm the best version of myself, as well as best poker player, I've ever been. I'm two tabling 10nl in my sleep and playing 10z on WPN. In a week, I have even more money to work with and there's going to be another stimulus for $600 to $2,000. Who knows? No lower than $600, though. Sober, studying, and playing my best game yet...I am absolutely all in again.
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