Avoiding 4Bet-pots
Posted by RaoulFlush
Posted by
RaoulFlush
posted in
Low Stakes
Avoiding 4Bet-pots
Hey guys,
been watching a lot of Henry Listers Videos these days and wanted to gather some opinions about a specific standard spot for maybe trying out a new approach about it. Relying on following line at NL50
UTG (unknown) opens 3x
Hero plays QQ in MP and 3bets 3x
UTG jams for 100BB
Hero calls and looks up into KK.
I was wandering about his line here and remembered about Henry who said that its worth to avoid 4BP oop in general. Maybe i could learn from this and simplyfy my own UTG-strategy playing strong hands in UTG much easier:
What about 2 follwing 4-bet-ranges for UTG (and MP vs oop as well i guess):
4B standard 2.3-2.5x with A5s/AA
4B jam with AK(semibluff)/KK (value)
flat/fold everything else
Is there any sense for this line? I would hate to make ppl fold their TT-QQ, but given high rake and 20% equity its not the end of the world maybe. I often struggle to play esp. AK appropriate in this spot and this approach might help me a lot. But im quite unsure if this is in general a good idea.
Interested in any thoughts about this plan.
Cheerz
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Doesn't look like solid approach to me: by only calling and jamming you are pretty easy to play against. When you jam vs 3bet, IP can basically fold everything except premium and not be exploited. You'll risk 97 to win pot 113,5 which gives opportunity for 3bettor to get away pretty cheaply. Let's not even mention that when you start to get deeper (even 110bb) or vs small 3b size that's strategy gonna be pretty atrocious
Well, therefore im still 4betting smaller with a balanced range (AA/A5s) im not always flatting or jamming. And therefore my jamming range is pretty "bluffy" with 16 AK-combos it should be pretty profitable if Villain folds any PP pre and should do ok when called. Its my goal to set Villain a very bad price for all hands that share 50% vs my AK while still doing ok often when called. Doesnt sound too easy to play against to me and tbh pretty +EV.
But im just letting my thoughts walk around this topic atm....
okay you open 3bb and have 100BB stack; and got 3bet 9bb. So there are 13,5bb dead money in the middle. Now you are risking 97bb to win those 13,5bb, does it sounds good? Not really, but not the worst. If villian 3bet 7% vs you he need to call slightly more than 1% range which is pretty much AKs+ KK+
Its my goal to set Villain a very bad price for all hands that share 50% vs my AK while still doing ok often when called
Not working this way. If villian calls AKo vs your shove he will burn money essentially. I'd say playing 4bets is higher EV than jams only if your opposition calling too weak hands vs jam or 3betting crazy amount and for big size
This strategy works for 40bb/50bb pretty well. For 100BB only in late positions it is somewhat possible to have jamming range. For 125bb I doubt there is much jamming going on
The hand that really wants to do this is AKo, every other hand that jams just does it to make that range a little harder to play against (i.e: stop you getting 3B and called off by every pocket pair without a second thought) so it's a lot of AKo, some KK and some QQ. Realistically though just do this with AKo until you see someone call you light then you can throw in the QQ/KK to get some value.
Thanks for yor input so far guys.
The idea of playing this style sounds pretty strange to me as well, and i would not wonder if you were thinking like "what the hell is he talking" :)
Jeff_ :
Still dont get your last point tbh: so if Villain 3B/Folds something like TT-QQ/AK vs my jam, we are basically printing money and safe a lot of rake (He folds about 45% Equity then!). Villain would need about 45% (ourselves need about 48%)Equity for a call of my jam.
So if he calls KK+/AK we still have 40% with KK/AK. Doesnt sound too bad to me. Add QQ to his range and we have 44% (as posted above me fish called with QQ).
Even thoug we might loose Value against other bluffs, that simply fold here, we also avoid to get bluffed off the better hand postflop (esp. wit AK)
DNegs98 :
Does sound interesting. Do you have any experience playing AK this way?
Cheerz
Okay. Because you risk so much money to win relative small pot he has to fold a lot. Maybe think it is this way: you face 2 normal barrels and huge river jam, you already know that you can fold a lot and not being exploited because aggressor risking putting whole stack in.
Maybe another pretty extreme example. Some opponents jams 100BB vs your open raise, same logic you don't need to call AKo/QQ vs shove because you can only call KK+ and opponent can not exploit you or print money by any means. However we do call wider because generally people overplay and spazz out
p.s. I suggest you just use jam in late positions.
You can flat QQ vs UTG in MP you know, nobody is making you 3bet it 100 percent of the time. In fact, the EV between 3betting and calling is really marginal, its not like your gaining super EV by 3betting. Also, you can fold to the jam. QQ isn't a hand you have to stack off in every single position.
Yeah, im of course aware of this and guess you are right, that once 3bet, this is usually a fold vs unkown jam UTG. However im not a huge fan of calling here tbh. Ppl dond tend to fall into this trap anymore these days (Squeezing and calling off light) and are happy flatting whide (esp. in the blinds). Thats a pretty bad scenario for QQ either. But for sure: marginal spot....
If you don't like calling, just 3bet small. I personally call QQ, but the EV is all these lines are barely noticeable. Snowie thinks calling nets you +0.02 ev and 3 betting small nets you +0.03ev. Nobody is going to exploit you for having different 3betting ranges.
JamesYang: Does Snowie take any kind of rake into account for that EV-Calculation? I guess this might have a huge impact about the difference between those to lines (depending on the limits you play). Not advocating for a 3bet in general, but you got to keep this in mind.
I have it set on the lowest limit 20nl with rake included
Oh, wow.....would´ve thought, that rake leds this be more of a 3bet usually....Always nice to learn something :)
Hi James,
Really dumb question but I’m brand new to RIO, could you please tell me what Snowie is? I get the feeling it is some sort of solver, is that correct? (I’m familiar with them in PLO, not sure if they are in NL too)
Where does one purchase it?
https://www.pokersnowie.com/
It's not a solver like PIO solver where it works backwards with a board and bet size and finds hands needed to defend in previous streets including preflop. It's more like an AI that has agents playing with itself to find the highest EV decisions. Solvers are more balanced and closer to GTO, and Snowie is more exploitative.
This kind of thing is why I only get it all in preflop with KK or AA unless I have a specific read. The difference between KK and QQ is just so huge
after playing so many hands, you begin to realize the only hand your truely happy getting it all in pre is AA
You can have a 3 bet shoving range UTG out of position, its fine. Preflop solver ranges exist.
Edit: 4 bet shoving range ^^
Awesome, thank you for the reply and link @JamesYang. I’ll check that out.
Much appreciated.
I put the following spot into Snowie
UTG 2.5bb
SB 3bet to 12.5BB
Snowie 3bets: TT+ (30), AK (16), basically all AQs-A3s (44 combos), KQs (2), AQo (6) about 98-95 combos depending on frequency.
UTG shoves 100bb
Snowie's calls off QQ+ and AKs. (22 combos)
Means Snowie is folding 78% of the time and stacking off 22%.
Does this make the shove profitable?
When I put this into a fold equity calculator, say we break even if villain folds 52% of the time.
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