all my hands are the same.
Posted by Nick Howard
Posted by
Nick Howard
posted in
Mid Stakes
all my hands are the same.
BN: $507.32
SB: $350.62
BB: $512.44 (Hero)
UTG: $674
HJ: $200
CO: $330.67
SB: $350.62
BB: $512.44 (Hero)
UTG: $674
HJ: $200
CO: $330.67
Preflop
($3.00)
(6 Players)
Hero was dealt
A
A
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO calls $2, BN raises to $6, SB folds, Hero raises to $21, CO folds, BN calls $15
UTG folds, HJ folds, CO calls $2, BN raises to $6, SB folds, Hero raises to $21, CO folds, BN calls $15
Flop
($47.00)
T
2
T
(2 Players)
my current thought process:
"looks like i'm deep. gonna wait till the turn to start playing poker!"
:/
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Well, what about you study yourself to see why you're afraid of playing deep poker? Maybe you need to work on your deep stacked postflop play, sure, most of us do.
But from the hands you post, there seems to be something that paralyzes you in those spots. Here for instance, you have quite an obvious c-bet. I understand the merits in checking flop as PFR or 3bettor, but if you start to check EVERY flop, well that seems pretty bad to me. When you reopen the betting by reraising preflop, you're stating something: 'my range is stronger than yours, so I gonna inflate the pot'.
On most flops, your range will still be stronger, especially on those dry flops. So you should Cb a huge % of the time. As I said in another thread, you don't have a X/F range, so decent opponents will just rape you in this kind of spot. They will take free equity correctly, will give up their air, will find decent spots to bluff you, etc. Usually they kill your strategy by not stabbing anything on the flop. They can also multi-barrel and overbet if they're so inclined. You're OOP and gives them all the space they want to outplay you. It seems as if you're afraind of value betting! Sure, inducing is cool, but you'll only induce to a certain extent. Overall, it gives you a tricky but weak image. Tricky is good, weak isn't.
You always seem to be concerned with balance, but the way I see this situation, checking AA on this flop is more of a very exploitative play than a balanced play (checking can be good against spazzistic vilains, or very straightforward / bad vilains... and against those you surely don't need nor want to play balanced).
Alright, you need to email Pokerstars and tell them to ban the RNG from dealing you Aces for the next three weeks until you figure this out.
I'm not sure if my opinion stands up to rigor here, but:
It kind of seems like you think as we get deeper we should become more polarized with our c-bets since the SPR can be as high (or higher) than a single-raised pot. This is going to kind of turn into us not c-betting at all, though, because we can't just make Aces to be the top of our checking range, and we only have so many Tx.
If we aren't c-betting at all, then it kind of seems like we're sacrificing some EV here because this board shouldn't favor Villain. We should close to the same amount of Tens and probably should have more over-pairs.
Also, I think you should do some work away from the tables to figure out what's going on, because I don't think playing to try and improve will really answer your questions or get you much closer to equilibrium at this point. At best, I think it will just kind of converge on some pseudo-MES that works against the Villains you're playing with (but it might not even do that).
It could very well be that c-betting is not good here but Villains don't make you indifferent enough for it to matter, or it could very well be that c-betting with some Aces must dominate checking them, but I don't think you figure this out by playing.
By the way, MOP makes kind of subtle but relevant point towards the end of the book:
As you get deeper, it becomes proportionally important for you to threaten the nuts.
Thus, you need to show up with some hands in spots that you wouldn't have with shallower stacks.
I also think what Mr. Sneeze said about you relying on Villain's over-stabbing here is probably right, but I don't think it's certain by any means.
Mr. Sneeze I don't necessarily agree that checking AA here makes you exploitable.
Your default should be to cbet this. You don't have to cbet every time and I actually like checking this with AA a decent % of the time. I also don't mind giving up on this board when you have complete air and no bd/good barrel cards on turns too. This spot seems great for villain to float if hero bets 100% of their range here and will have a hard time barreling off with a good % of it (I believe Mr. Sneeze is advocating for cbetting 100% of your range here, I believe that is a leak).
Personally, I would construct my range to be something like: Cbet hands that turns cards that can barrel (Overcards/straight cards) and medium straight cards with bd flush (i.e. 89s) nearly 100% of the time. Cbet my value hands (88+ and 10x) nearly 100% of the time except maybe AA and KK can be bet 70% and check/call 30%. Check fold hands with no good barrel cards/nearly zero equity. A range such as this seems like it should be well balanced and tough to exploit.
Additionally, the frequency (%) I check the flop with AA or KK could also just be based off opponents floating or bet when checked to %. You could construct your range by choosing some relatively high number as an inflection point for "bet when checked to %" when vs opponents in this spot. I.e. you bet when their % is lower than 65% but check when it is higher than 65% etc.
Additionally, the frequency (%) I check the flop with AA or KK could
also just be based off opponents floating or bet when checked to %
That's kind of an interesting point. It seems like we might want to have hands that bet flop and check-call turn. Can anybody show that this is trivially dominated?
What hands do we x/c OTF besides some % of AA and KK?
AF3 what do you mean by trivially dominated?
In such a coordinated board I think when checked with AA and KK we dont have to look blindly in that specific part of our range by only bet if checks to much and check if bets too much, I dont think stats here give you the right approach of V in this spot, maybe dont decide to bet and scare us and is checking back with a Tx hoping for a card that we may donk catching some equity and you are assuming that he would have bet according to his stats when checked to IP.
Im not saying its a bad idea to construct ranges taking into account stats, all information is very important, but I will look also the preflop and postflop tendencies of villian that lead us to easier lines and decisions all the streets with better constructed ranges due to clearer information. In this case I bet most of the times without info for value (not all the times for balance) JJ+,Tx and some Broadways with BD that I may keep barreling, because I think the following cards will lead the play of the hand for being so dry OTF.
Checking this hand is absolutely fine, because you block most Ahighs that will peel the flop.
If it checks through, you bet twice for value.
Betting right away is fine also, though getting 3 big bets in good is maybe a little optimistic.
Chael what is your guess as to what a good c-bet % should be on this flop, and what are the value hands you're using in that range?
I agree getting 3 streets good is optimistic, but what do you think about bet, check, bet? In spots like these I'll often c bet and then if I don't feel like the turn effects villains range much I'll check the turn to get him thinking I'm a "fire 1 bullet and give up" kind of player and then bet the river.
I'd probably c-bet this board a lot.
The pairs you 3-bet for value are good enough to bet and they need protection. Your suited broadways have overs and backdoor equity.
Even AK can be value bet here.
So I'd most check my 3-bet bluffs and maybe some hands like AA, TT and occasionally a Tx.
Being deep doesn't mean you have to bomb the flop right away.
I think pretty much any line other than folding works here it really comes down to what dynamics you have with the villain.
I think this is a really good post. Imo these are the options:
1) check our entire range OTF
2) c-bet flop+turn with overpairs+, then bet river large with Tx, while checking enough Tx OTR to protect our overpairs from very large sizings.
3) c-bet flop and turn with overpairs+, then bet large with some Tx, while betting small with overpairs and some Tx to protect us from shoves.
#3 is appealing to me b/c overpairs seem to want ~2.5 streets, although it leaves us with virtually no river x/c range which may or may not be a problem.
what are your guys thoughts on these options, or, do you have a different option?
Point being: don't you want to ajust your range to your opponent rather than you opponent adjust to your range?
In these spots, vs most opponents my plan is to get 2 sts of value, and i play accordingly vs villains range by checking either the flop or the turn. There is an auxiliary benefit to this approach, as every now and again i may get 3 sts from someone who decides that my range is capped and does something silly as a result.
You don´t want to check because you are affraid of your opponent having a T. You want to check because blocking Aces on this board means blocking almost absolutely everything into the villans floating range.
i'm most interested in finding a strategy that does well readless. From experience i have a tendency to over-value my ability to sustain exploits, since i'm always vulnerable to someone realizing how i perceive them and re-countering me. I'm looking for a sustainable strategy that doesn't subject me to hard counterstrategies.
Matt Hwralenko (or however you say name) wrote a really good piece on this.
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