AK multiway
Posted by Cozacu
Posted by
Cozacu
posted in
Low Stakes
AK multiway
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10 (6 Players)
SB: $10.00
BB: $9.22
UTG: $11.18
MP: $10.15 (Hero)
CO: $7.50
BN: $18.70
BB: $9.22
UTG: $11.18
MP: $10.15 (Hero)
CO: $7.50
BN: $18.70
UTG 29/22 over 59 fishy looking
CO 50/26 fish 0FT3bet AF 7.0 ftcbet50% 69 hands
CO 50/26 fish 0FT3bet AF 7.0 ftcbet50% 69 hands
Preflop
($0.15)
Hero is MP with
K
A
, , , ,
PF somewhat standard given UTG stats and fish behind + fish in the SB.
Flop
($3.15)
7
6
2
, , ,
Here I figured, that multiway our hand is just too weak to check call and on the other hand their calling range is quite wide... so instead of just check/folding every time it would be more +ev to bet big flop and give up later... or just go broke vs these villains if A or K shows up on turn.
Turn
($7.15)
7
6
2
8
, ,
Do you think such a start is any good on this flop?
Loading 17 Comments...
I see this hand differently than you. Usually, vs an utg open, I like to call with AK. The fish is also more likely to call in a single raised pot than vs a cold 3bet imo, so flatting gives you better chance to play with the fish.
OTF, I dont like the bet because of the fish and because UTG wont call with worse of fold better. A fish is a fish because he call too much so my strategy posflop mway with a fish is to lead with value hands and check otherwise (in this case, trying to spike a TPTK or trying to get to showdown vs weaker hand). I just think that you dont get enough fold to bet AK here.
I would x/f the flop. Both their ranges are pocketpair-heavy and likely don't fold the flop.
I don't think that thier ranges are that PP heavy. They will still have a bunch of broadways and SCs as well.
Sc's hit this board, and even the draws often will take it from us later once we show weakness, even a fish can make that bluff IMO. And we dominate Broadways so getting them to fold is just okay...since they would sometimes bluff us with hands we dominate folding these out is still good I'd say. Its not a great spot to single barrel in my mind, as I said before.
Agree w/ knoxox on x/f the flop here. AKo w/o any backdoors will not make you a lot of money. I think folding will be higher EV.
I slightly disagree with cpau about the fish. Somtimes they call pre really wide and will fold the flop a lot when they miss.
I think the 3bet is good, since UTG seem slightly loose, also I think I prefer to not go mulitway with a fish being IP.
As played, I think postflop is fine. The turn is pretty bad and may have connected well with his wide range, so I think ch/f is fine.
If it wasnt vs utg, I'd 3bet for sure. I mean, Im not calling because of the presence of the fish behind, Im calling first of all because we are vs an utg raiser. I just said that if you wanted to have the fish in the pot, calling will more likely get you that than 3betting.
there are utg opening ranges and utg opening ranges.
This guy seems loose, 3bet could be fine vs his utg opening range. Popup stats are somewhat useful for this exact purpose. Bringing up villain's RFI stats for each position before setting 3betting frequencies and structures is very useful, just flatting certain hands vs certain poisitions by default could lead to mistakes.
Your reasoning seems inconsistent to me.
You raise preflop because they are calling really wide. So this implies that the global strategy to beat these players comes from betting with stronger holdings and letting them call down.
Then you bet flop because "our hand is too weak to c/c and on the other hand calling range is quite wide....bet big flop and give up later"
So if that's the case, you are rewarding his play with all weak pps, draws, etc, and letting him escape cheaply with the range we dominate (ATo type hands, etc), since that is most of what will fold.
I think giving up multiway here OTF is preferable, and I also think that if you do bet, you are committing to firing turns and river on any broadway runouts, etc. Betting flop with the plan of giving up tailors your game to be exploited naturally by these types of players IMO, and is especially a weak play in a multiway pot without absolute position.
Just because these players are calling wide PF it doesn't mean that they are going to do so post-flop. Why would we assume they are PP heavy? I think they can also have a bunch of SC and Broadways that are just giving up flop.
I see it happen a lot of times, fish calling garbage PF and then just folding to a cbet...
I`m not saying what I tried to do is better than x/fold. It is probably not, but I don't think the logic behind my play was that bad.
Sorry I didn't finish typing my thought here:
"that multiway our hand is just too weak to check call and on the other hand their calling range PF is quite wide"
Finding inconsistencies in your thought process and owning them is what its all about :). I think the discrepancy between
you
a)isoing pre knowing they will call wide with middling hands and pay off often when we hit, and
b) single barreling ace high 3way on a middling board w/out absolute position
Is pretty clear if you look at it objectively, no?
Yes. I should just check/fold vs these guys... (but then isn't our ISO PF a bit bad?... but not raising such a strong hand vs these opponents would also be a mistake)
What is the best play then? Is AK hitting here often enough for us to just check/fold rubish flops?
My opinion is that we are hitting often enough or will at least have position enough (position helps because we can see 2 more cards when we cbet before we have shown weakness) that we can very profitably play this fast pre still, yeah.
There is another thing to considere. The pot is mway so its harder to cbet. In a HU situation vs the fish, its easier to cbet on good board and find spot where we can barel him off his hand. All that being said, on this board, even HU vs the fish, im not cbetting AK because there isnt many turn card that allows me to continue barelling with equity.
Their ranges dont have to be PP heavy (CO can coldcall with any pretty hand and UTG is likely almost never folding) and I understand your tendency to fire. Cbetting certainly isnt horrible, but I think that checking is gonna be better. We will still get to realize our equity and by cbetting we mostly get them to fold hands with reverse implied odds vs our hand.
Sure, we will get bluffed sometimes, but it doesnt have to be that often, even aggro fish dont love bluffs that expensive.
I would call pre... you are isolating yourself vs a very strong range when you raise, the fish behind you is just a bonus, you want them in the hand, not out of the hand. CO's range is pretty faced up I would ck/f this.
If you would've called and let's say that CO would've folded for some reason (example) THEN you can bet the flop when UTG checks because he is representing that he missed, whether it's AJ/ ATs / KJs, you will be representing a PP, he could call 1 with AQ but then it'll go ck/ck ck/ck. It's better to just get him off KJ QJ and those stuff, obv we wouldn't want him to fold KJ b/c a K could make us money but you have nothing, he has nothing and he's telling you that. if that happens just take that ticket. but in this hand im calling and c/f flop when CO bets.
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