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6max Blind defense vs Button

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Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

6max Blind defense vs Button

I'm a midstakes player.

Does anyone of you make profit (losing less than 100bb/100) calling hands between A2o-A9o against button steal?

I was 3b these hands but i was losing more than 100bb, so i decided to start calling with no success, at the moment i'm folding.

I play in a field in which regs steal between 40 and 60% with a size of 2bb or 2,5bb. My 3bet success is 46 from SB and 49 from BB.

I'm calling with profit hands like suited 3gap which has lower equity against villain range.

I feel weak to fold hands like A2-A9o with 50% equity against villain's open range. 

I'm sure that I need to improve my game OOP. 

Against good reg (no very high fold to cbet raise, no very low turn bet etc...)

Sorry for my English ;)



16 Comments

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BigFiszh 11 years, 4 months ago

What sample size are you talking about - to determine if you´re winning/losing (compared to folding)? I have like 450 hands flatting A9o-A2o (over 350k hand sample!) and I´m losing roughly 80bb/100.

Chael Sonnen 11 years, 4 months ago

I'd like to know how to look at this in PT.
So if you tell me how, I can tell you my personal stats, and perhaps help you out.

I don't fold offsuit aces to anyone but maybe extremely tight players.
But most of those players are also pretty bad, so you can outplay them without realising your equity.


VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago

I lose near 130bb/100 flatting A2o-A9o in 350 hands... I decided to change strategy because i was losing 130bb/100 with Wtsd 27 and W$Sd 54... 

@chael

I use HM2...

Anyway the situation is:

- 1 raiser from btn

- hero pos Sb/bb

- Vpip = true 

- 3bet = false

- A2o-A9o


VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago

No obv. I'm asking you for this.

If 99/100 here tell me they lose in this spot I could probably save my money and stop trying calling. ;)

If 99/100 here tell me they win in this spot I'm happy to keep calling and watch my future result (maybe I'l be in the % of people that still lose -> focus on my postflop game OOP... Or maybe my win rate will be better than -99/100). 

Let's assume in 100 people 

-best scenario 10 lose 80bb/100

-medium 80 lose a mean of 110bb/100

-worst 10 lose 130bb/100

Could be significant






BigFiszh 11 years, 4 months ago

I´d say it HAS to be profitable to call those hands BB vs. BTN, so the question is not if most players win or lose money, but only HOW to win money (win money in terms of losing less than 100bb/100).

A2o has 50% equity (!) against a range of 55% - and you´re getting 3:1 on a minraise so you get twice the equity you´re needing, how can it be best to fold despite that?

=> Stop asking IF you should play those hands, start asking HOW to play those hands ...

james 11 years, 4 months ago
Agreed. I think if it's a hand that intuitively feels like it should be close then you can start thinking about just cutting it out of your defending range but if it's a hand that seems like it should be in your defending range then I'd look at your post flop play.


VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago

Yes. I think that it's interesting to filter in 2 way:

-Flopping a pair/flush/nut fd/2pair +

-Flopping A-high

Or

-Vs Cbet

-Vs Check behind


-Flopping pair/flush/nut fd/2pair +I'm winning 55bb/100

115 hands

Wtsd 49,6 W$sd 63,2

flop fold vs cbet 2% 

check call 82

check raise 14

-Flopping none of this I'm winning -220bb/100

242 hands

Wtsd 19,4 W$sd 40,4

flop fold vs cbet 61%

check call 15,2

check raise 23,8%


-Facing flop Cbet -255bb/100

-Vs Missed Cbet 100bb/100 (bet vs missed Cbet 57%)


If you'd like to analyze with others filters tell me, i found these interesting.




BigFiszh 11 years, 4 months ago
I don´t think your filtering is the right way to look at things. If you look at roughly 400 hands, variance is just way too high. Imagine you had won one stack instead of losing one - that makes a difference of 200bb, which over 400 hands is the difference between -130bb/100 and -80bb.
BigFiszh 11 years, 4 months ago

Do I smell irony? :)

"So what is your advice?"

Post hands you´re not sure about ...

VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago
Yes :) and it succed to make you purposing something like: "Post hands you´re not sure about" :)
I know that 350 hands are really variance oriented... but try to anticipate what will be the result without variance imho is +ev than wait and then analyze... For this aim I've posted stats with filters...



Maestrrro 11 years, 4 months ago

I also think that you should not question yourself if flatting these hands to bu open is ok.... Maybe you fold to to many c bets with A high on dry board. Lots of regs will stop barreling after you x/c flop and you will realize your equity and often win at ad without an extra bet. Definitely folding these hands to bu MR is the worst option. I have checked my current database and I have -74 bb/100 in 500 those hands.

VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago
Yes I'd try to flat more flop because on 92 hands the 2nd barrel only 38/92 turn -> 41%!
When they don't 2nd barrel I'm winning 181bb/100... winning at Sd and without Sd...
When they 2nd barrel I'm winning -629bb/100... losing at Sd and without Sd... (even filtered with 14 TP -> Won hand 29%, I'm losing 512bb/100 while check folding is -470bb/100)

I repeat I know that watching so few hands could be useless but i think it's +ev than don't watch it...
Anyway SEEM that in my field with TP kicker 2-9 is better to XC 1 street and then give up than XC XC...



VforVengeance 11 years, 4 months ago

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (On Game)
€200.00 EUR NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, September 08, 04:44:23 ET 2013
Table Lendinara (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Seat 4: Hero ( €234.92 EUR ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 23, 3B: 8, AF: 2,6, Hands: 902106
Seat 5: Player5 ( €426.75 EUR ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 2,1, Hands: 105209
Seat 6: Player6 ( €237.51 EUR ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 16, 3B: 8, AF: 2,9, Hands: 59389
Seat 8: Player8 ( €293.86 EUR ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, 3B: 6, AF: 2,6, Hands: 25626
Seat 9: Player9 ( €330.58 EUR ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 18, 3B: 8, AF: 2,8, Hands: 254587
Seat 10: Player10 ( €198.00 EUR ) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 20, 3B: 8, AF: 4,0, Hands: 230912
Player10 posts small blind [€1.00 EUR].
Hero posts big blind [€2.00 EUR].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [  Ah 7s ]
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 raises [€4.00 EUR]
Player10 folds
Hero calls [€2.00 EUR]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 4h, Kh ]
Hero checks
Player9 bets [€5.00 EUR]
Hero raises [€16.00 EUR]
Player9 raises [€35.00 EUR]
Hero raises [€214.92 EUR]
Player9 calls [€190.92 EUR]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
Player9 wins €467.59 EUR from main pot
Hero shows [Ah, 7s ]
Player9 shows [4d, 4c ]

Villain steals 57 from BTN, Cbet flop Ip 67, fold to raise Ip 38, turn Cbet Ip 61, fold turn to raise Ip 47, turn fold after B/C flop 28, River fold after B/C and turn Call 63. 25k hands

Hova 11 years, 4 months ago

I would x/c this flop vs most. And if not then definitely just calling when he clicks it back on the flop. I find it quite unlikely that villain is 3bet/folding vs us in this spot too often, and if he ever is we have a good situation since his bluffs likely always barrell our good cards OTT. We are also getting it in very bad when he calls our jam here and since he is opening button he has almost every flush in his range since he will be opening hands like 82hh and paying them this way.


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