5NL - Interesting Hand Need Some Feedback
Posted by MrFalvo
Posted by
MrFalvo
posted in
Low Stakes
5NL - Interesting Hand Need Some Feedback
Blinds: $0.02/$0.05 (6 Players)
BN: $5.62
SB: $7.99
BB: $6.40
UTG: $6.43
MP: $5.00
CO: $10.74 (Hero)
SB: $7.99
BB: $6.40
UTG: $6.43
MP: $5.00
CO: $10.74 (Hero)
Preflop
($0.07)
Hero is CO with
K
J
, , , ,
Flop
($0.45)
K
9
J
, , , , ,
Final Pot
BB wins $2.73
Rake is $0.12
Rake is $0.12
Looks super strong when he donks pot on this board and re raises my raise. I figured that folding the flop might be fine despite the price im getting to call because I don't feel comfortable calling later street bets.
What do you guys think?
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Why raise the donk?
Well I just figured that it looked really strong on that board so I wanted to see where I was at because I don't really know what I would do on a turn and river bet.
Betting to "know where you at" is not a good reason to bet. There is little logical sense in it.
It is a common understanding that we bet a) To make the pot bigger in case we win. This implicate that you have some potential to do so with your hand and a favourable runout. b)To protect you're hand, you dont want to be outdrawn on Turn or River and to deny the share of equity Villain might have with his holding.
This board is neutral as far as RA based on common range for BB and CO, so your bet make sense, you want to fight those boards, and you meet the 2 criteria to bet. Once you are raised, Villain polarized himself on this kind of texture. When you re-raise him you isolate yourself probably versus a range that will have very strong equity versus your actual holding. But if you just call you keep all his bluffs in his range going to Turn(which he should have plenty)+His worst TP(you beat those) that he bet for protection and equity denial on this texture.
@backfromdagobah
When he re raises me I just do see how he has any bluffs especially with the pot donk. I feel like he's flush draws just flat my raise and the only value hand we beat is k9 which I have no clue why you would re raise very low with. If I call his raise I feel like he barrels like every turn and it's hard for me to call.
I read the HH wrong. I thought you were the one who bet and he raised. The principles still the same, if you raise him you ISO yourself vs. a stronger range instead of letting him keep his bluffs.
Villain's donk bet is pot sized. I don't see how you can raise on a board that is this coordinated. Just call and see what he does on the turn.
On a coordinated board like this, I call. On an uncoordinated board I might be more inclined to raise. Especially if his donk bet was smaller, say 1/4 or 1/3 pot. But 1/2 pot and larger I like to call a lot to keep villain's bluffs in. It depends on stack sizes, SPR, how aggressive villain is etc.
This is mostly true. Don't assume 100% of the time this is true or you will be too exploitable and lose a lot of value with strong hands like this. There are aggressive players that will make plays like this, especially if they know you fold a lot to any type of pressure. This is why you call. It is harder to be out played when you just call. And when you are beat, sometimes you will improve on the turn, if you see one.
Think of it this way, villain could have a pair, a gutshot and a flush draw on this board, all at the same time (Q9s and T9s). If so, he has a mountain of equity. If you add in fold equity with his aggressive betting/raising, you can see villain doesn't have to have a nut hand to play this way. AQs has an over card, a gutshot and the nut flush draw, etc.etc Lot's of hands have lots of equity on this board but do not currently have you beat. Fold equity against tight players makes this a more profitable line for the villain than just calling to hit his draw.
Actually, I just looked at the flop betting a little closer. Your raise was on the small size, less than 3x. I would pot it, or even over bet a little if I'm going to raise. I still like checking, but if it's a loose aggressive player and you want to raise on the flop, raise larger.
When you get min 3-bet, I think with a hand this strong you can call against a lot of villains and see a turn card. The problem is, there will be an spr of 1 on the turn. Calling off with top two on a lot of blank turn cards is certainly something I would do against the right players. But with an spr of 1, it's all or nothing.
Just calling on the flop avoids this.
Folding is bad because even if you only continue on the turn with a K or J you are getting good enough odds to try to hit your 4 outer because you'll stack him every time in position with this much money going in on the flop unless he's somehow just on complete air. I feel like your fold smells a little bit of scared money not wanting to make tough decisions for a stack on the turn.
I think your raise on the flop is fine. You're hardly ever getting 3 bet here and I feel like people saying you put yourself in a bad situation are being results oriented because 95% of the time people are just calling here with a draw or folding whatever crap they decided to donk with. That said, I agree with tr33f1ddy that you should go bigger on a board this dynamic. Bad situations are inevitable in poker and it's how we become better, which is most of the point of 5 NL.
When the 3 bet is this small I'll probably see a turn but I'm not really feeling a fold here except on bad turns (of which there are plenty). A normal sized 3 bet I probably just say screw it and get it in because he could have a few worse value hands and a crap ton of draws. I mean if we give him 19 combos of QT and 99 that means he also has the unsuited KJ, J9, and K9 (16 combos). And any heart + gut shot might play like this or heart + pair, pair + gut, or whatever.
"people saying you put yourself in a bad situation are being results oriented"
V DkB/3B on flop, this is very different then if H had CBet and V raise his CBet.
He is already narrowing his range by betting and when he is raised he 3B. Unless he is a complete maniac we should proceed carefully with our range assumptions. Specially recognizing that WE are the PFR and in V's eyes we have a lot of strong K in our range on this flop + strong draws. That should be a worries because this donk bet have a very definite purpose here.
If he plays this aggressively with his value hands then we know we actually beat a good chunk of them on the flop. He might have 99 and might have QT but its very unlikely that he has KK or JJ and we beat K9 and J9. So with 19 combos of hands that we lose to, 15 combos that we beat, even if he has no bluffs in his range we are getting very good odds. The problem is that when we flat, we are very likely facing a turn and maybe a river bet while playing a very big pot with a lot of bad turns and rivers for us. A 7, Q, or any heart is gonna suck. But if we fold KJ then what is our continuing range looking like? If we had a heart draw it would be very difficult to fold here as we're pretty much getting direct odds, especially with the nut draw. But we can't ONLY call or raise with heart draws because it's too exploitable, either our opponent always folds when a heart hits or always blasts when it doesnt and suddenly we lose all our value.
So our question becomes "do we ever shove on his raise?". Conventional thinking is no because we'll isolate ourselves against his strongest hands and get all of his weaker hands to fold. But if that's the case then we definitely want a raising range here (if he's playing aggressively with 2 pair+ AND we think he'll fold the weaker part of that then we're losing a ton of value by not having a bluffing range), we just want it to be polarized with strong hands and draws, and KJ isn't strong enough, so do we call then? We need to find a way to differentiate between which hands we'll call with and which hands we'll raise. So if we raise straights and KK, call other sets and some 2 pair, it will really help balance out the draws that we're calling with (remember we cannot fold some of those draw because of the odds we're getting, literally almost direct odds to hit on the TURN).
Honestly I might just fold J9 here because it makes it harder for him to have QJ, but KJ is way too strong to fold in my opinion. I mean I can't imagine this guy is really thinking about how his sizing is letting us call profitably with more hands. If we see him do this more and he keeps showing down the nuts then we can adjust our strategy to only flatting with those draws that are getting the right odds to draw out on his hands. But remember, a heart sucks but it won't always be terrible, he can be afraid of it too. Right, like if we think a heart always gives him the winner then we just jam flop and hi five everybody in the room.
The thing is even if I call the flop re raise I feel like I almost always have to call a turn bet and sometimes even a river bet if the turn and river bricks and idk like it just seems hard to do for me to do. But who knows I guess im a fish and I should call the small re raise because Im getting decent odds to the full house and sometimes he could be checking the turn.
If you're scared of being 3-bet on the flop, then don't raise, just call. When you raise, you have to ask yourself: what will I do if he 3-bets my raise. You have to consider this before you raise. Do you want to raise and have to fold top two pair? Are you getting it in? If not then don't raise, call.
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