4bet POT and we have position and initiative
Posted by Gramsci
Posted by
Gramsci
posted in
Mid Stakes
4bet POT and we have position and initiative
Blinds: $2.00/$4.00 (4 Players)
SB: $447.75
BB: $400.00
CO: $420.00 (Hero)
BN: $425.30
BB: $400.00
CO: $420.00 (Hero)
BN: $425.30
Preflop
($6.00)
Hero is CO with
A
J
, , , , ,
Flop
($160.00)
4
Q
K
,
Pretty common spot but I feel like Im missplay those and costing me a lot of money in the long run. Im not sure if I should place this hand in my 3barrel bluffing range since I block some of his range we want to fold out and we have some showdown equitie too.
My question is what kind of range should we be 3 ball bluffing here? Is AJ a check down, maybe one barrel ? I really im unsure of how to approach this spot
Thanks!
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No problem to 4B bluff with AJ, because you will be very happy to GII on Axx or Jxx if he flats you. And if he shoves PF, you have the easiest fold eva ;)
On this flop, if he got a merged 3betting range, I check back because our fold equity is close to 0%.
If he got a polarized one (and if he is calling the 4B OOP with SCs or Axs), you can bet 1/4 pot.
In a vaccum : check back unless you got a read he is polarized OOP.
Thanks PIH,
No read really except that he is a nl400 reg. When we check the flop do we shut down completely and just try to show down or a stab is good?
You can probably stab one time on the river, repping AQ, to fold a lot of his range that beat us.
But you got good SD value with AJ too, so...
I'm a bit confused by your preflop line here. You take a hand that's good enough to call a 3bet and 4bet it, but you make the 4bet sizing so small that villain should be calling almost his entire 3betting range unless he's really getting out of line and 3betting way too wide. Your hand is good enough to call his 3bet from these positions, why not choose a hand like ATo or A9o to 4bet bluff with and use a size where he doesn't have an auto-call?
As for postflop, it's a board that smashes our range so I like starting with a small flop stab of around 1/4 pot as PH recommended. We can have KK/QQ/AA/AK in our range while villain really only ever has KQ that feels comfortable on this board. We can also fold out JJ-66 type hands which should all be in his range due to your 4bet sizing.
viallian call hero's 4bet bluff oop got much range advantage than hero, i dont think hero can get much fold equity at flop. I think check is better.
You can look at your database, but I am losing way more than 300bb/100 when I defend with AJo vs 3B, even OTB. Even AQo is very tough to play, due to the fact villain range got a lot of hands that crush AQ/AJ.
After, maybe I am just very bad postflop IP in 3B pot (float way too much, or call down 3 barrels too often, or maybe playing too tight when hitting a pair... I don't know).
With a 4B, he will probably shove any hand that crush us (AK+/JJ+), and call a lot of Jxs (J9s, JTs, QJs, KJs), Axs, PPs, because it looks so sexy...
When I 4B AJo / AQo, my WR is way better than with a flat.
Sado- Can you please explain why you think villain's call of hero's 4bet OOP has much more range advantage than hero?
PH- Very intersting. If that's the case then turning AJo into a bluff seems fine. Would you mind walking me through how to find my winrate with AJo in that situation in my HEM2(if you use that tracking program)?
Also, dumb question that I can't remember the answer to but why do you want to win more than 300bb/100? Where does this number come from again?
I use HEM 1, but it should be similar for HEM 2.
I use :
- unopened pot (you can add one limper or 2 limpers+), but it seems more accurate with zero limpers,
- position for myself : CO / OTB,
- position of 3B : SB/BB,
- hole card : AJo, or AQo (you can add KQo, ATo, KJo) if your sample is too small)
[x] PFR true,
[x] faced PF 3B true
[x] AIPF false => because vs shorts stackers fishes, our winrate will be higher.
[x] BB put in PF is bigger than 7.5 (because when fishes min3B OOP with KK or 76o, your winrate should be way higher)
Then I compare :
[x] folded to PF 3B true => generally I am at -300bb/100 when I raise/fold CO ; -200bb/100 OTB ; So for a defense to be profitable, I need to lose "less" than -300bb on CO or -200bb OTB.
[x] called PF 3B true
[x] raised PF 3B true
Then you can compare your winrate on CO and OTB, both with AQo and AJo, and you should have some surprises ;)
For example : AQo seems very close to a fold / 4B bluff on CO ; when it is always a flat OTB.
AJo seems playing terribly bad in a 3B pot when you flat, unless you got a read, both on CO and OTB.
After, it is really tough to have a sample big enough to have accurate GTO stats, but my general idea is :
"Offsuit hands are playing very bad in 3B pot, it's better to 4B them to hit a TP and GII postflop on an already huge pot."
Alright so this might not even be relevent since my non-backed up hard drive crashed over the summer but I filtered my 200k hand database for 4-6 players where I was CO or BUT and called a 3bet from a SB or BB 3bettor with AJo.
It returned 69 total instances (lol at such a low number) at +230 bb/100 for what little it's worth.
Regardless, thanks for the run through on how to filter these hands. It was a bit different with HEM2 but easy to figure out thanks to your write-up!
Yeah I'd like to know that too
Hey guys, thanks for your answers. Im glad to see theres a lot of room for improvement in this spot. I feel like PIH said I make more money by 4betting the offsuit part of my AJ combos and flatting other, unless I got a very big read on OPP I can exploit play better vs him.
I was thinking about the Postflop spot and I tought it would be a good idea to check back all of our range on this board. Does this make sense? Or very stupid?
I think we should overbluff turn river after since OPP wont have KK and QQ a lot of time since I think most people tend to 5 bet jams those, hence their range will be very sensitive to pressure.
What you guys think?
how are you playing your AA/KK/QQ/AK/KQ on this flop?
I assume you always betting KQ/QQ, betting sometimes with AK/AA and sometime checkinng and always checking KK?
having said this, I think our range is well protected and agreed that you don't have much fold equity especially if you bet 1/4 of the pot, he is gonna peel all Qx and most gutters.
So i check back this flo, and looking to bet or call at least one more barrel depending on runout and villain's sizing
It seems like your value 4b range of AK QQ+ is the effective nuts, I'd be betting this flop 100% with my bluffs. If you're called I'll probably continue betting with AJo, your blockers aren't fantastic but the A might be good and you have 4 clean outs.
What bet-size? 1/4? Or $60 and shove Turn ~PSB
What Sauce said, but call pre-flop.
If he is a reg I would put his range on something close to this: (AA,QQ-66,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,AQo+,KQo).
I am taking KK out of his range because I believe he would 5b you with that hand. QQ can be in his calling range since you look very strong with that small 4b and he might want to just see the flop.
I constructed this range based on the fact it is plausible he would 3b you with these hands and also call your small 4b with these holdings. Suited connectors that 3b you will also call your small 4b.
So assuming his range is these 10% of hands... we need to figure out how this range hits a KQ4 rainbow board.
So the hands he will continue with:
Set: 3.09%
Two Pair: 9.28%
Top Pair?: 11.3%
Overpair: 3.09 (Slow playing his AA)
OESD?:3.09% (JTS)
I do not see him continuing with top pair unless he has AKs, or AKos,. He will fold his KJs. He will fold KJs so he will continue with only AKos and AKS combos which is around 9.47%. So based on the fact you look strong and you continue to represent strength I would think he would only continue 28% of the time. (3.09 + 9.28 + 9.47 + 3.09 + 3.09).
Any feedback would be great, I'm just getting used to plugging numbers into Equilab and Flopzilla.
It is a very very large mistake to fold TP to a small cb here.
Right I agree 100%
AKos and AKs combos must continue on the flop. However hands in villain's range like KJs and KTs suited should probably fold(unless getting very good odds to continue on). It also comes down to player tendencies. Does this player 4b small with weak or strong holdings? Many players 4b small when they have QQ+ in this spot. Conversely many other players will 4b small with a wider range of hands(like in OP).
In a vacuum I believe a solid continuation bet of 60-75% of the pot with get the villain to fold around 3/4ths of the time on the flop.
I really believe it comes down to how your 4b is perceived by the villian. I usually interpret small 4bs as strength, which could be a flaw.
What are some ways to use flopzilla and equilab together?
I kind of just free for all between the two and was just curious if there can be a more systematical relationship between them for studying.
eg;range construction,bluffcatching river,etc.
Thanks
@kiDcAnUckHonestly not sure. This is where coaching would be beneficial. It is hard to find affordable coaching to teach these concepts. I think poker coaching is very similar to personal training/fitness classes. It might be tough to pay for the 1-1, but if you add 3-4 more people it is more affordable and could be a win/win for the instructor and students. I have been searching for other students that would be interested in learning HRC and other analyzers but there does not seem to be enough interest. I think if 3-5 people pay around $70-$100 a hr we can get a really good coach to teach us HRC, CREV, and other tools. In the long run mastering these tools will be EV+++++++++++++.
I would probably bet 60 and shove all turns.
You all take way to much conclusions from the small 4bet.
We can prob bet 1/4 full range but due of the small 4b pot maybe 3/5 is slightly better. The problem with a check back range is, that is gonna look ugly if you check back k7s q8s kk (jj?) you have to put some extra hands in. If I think about the hands I would wanna add, I think about a5o a9 or so. But the problem with that kind of hand is that I also wanna add them in my betting range cause the A is such a good blocker for ak-a10. So betting full range seems the only way.
@Jersey grinder, after reading my post and facing me as the 4bet guy. Do think folding kjs would still be the optimal play? I don't wanna be unpolite on my first post but folding top pair here seems way out of line :)
4bet AJ, ok why not vs a good reg
I''m not fan to check this board now
Cbet like 70 is better
Hey guys!
First off thanks for all the great input! Really appreciate it. When I first tought about the spot, I was like why not check back our whole range since we have the nuts very often and dont need that much protection on that board vs OPP range.
But what Sauce said made lot of sense, because my way of thinking is very explo. The more GTO slash math approach would be to cbet 100% of our range since this board favor us. But yeah mostly I think this spot made me realise that I often but too much explo toughts into accounts. (I dont know if all this made sense lol)
Anyhow, thanks guy!
PS. I think calling and 4 betting are ok with AJo.
snowie says this is a call and i tend to agree. if your 4betting this combo of offsuit aj+ then your gonna be 4b bluffing a whole lot!
Stats would be very helpful here. In general against a SB 3b, which will tend to be more linear, calling is probably the best play as you are dominating hands like JT, JQ, JK, AT. If you think he is more polarised or is getting super out of line, 4b is a good option.
If you are gonna 4b, I'm assuming you want a fold, so make it at least 90 to discourage him peeling.
On the flop think a small cbet has to be the way to go. I'm assuming he shoves QQ, KK, AK pre most of the time so a lot of his range (66-JJ, suited connectors) will have a hard time continuing. On the turn I'd shove on any card 9 or lower to fold out AQ, AJ, AT, QJ, any 10 (obviously) and checking back on Q K and A.
I cannot see a reason for not betting this flop, we don't have much equity give up if CR... we get a free turn, and our turn cb can be a made hand controlling (KJ, AQ) - so he might bluff his jt, j9... but I doubt he turns underpairs/ weak middle pair into bluffs on the river... I follow through on my pre-flop story - we have a monster (well ok are polarized)... it also depends, against people who love to bluff catch oop, there are easier ways to take their money...
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