No offense but what are you doing on 400NL if you don't see the problem of folding JJ here? 

You presumably plan to call down on every runout to keep villain's range wide, and when the perfect bluff card comes off on the river you want to fold the top of your range, which is also basically the 2nd nuts.

If you really think he is so insanely nutted here that you should fold JJ then I don't understand why you don't just get it in on the flop.

Fist pump snapcall.

Ok, thanks for the comments guys, especially for the one that explains something. I'm not offended:)

Btw I "fist pump snapcalled", but after the hand, I thought that it isn't that obvious. As I wrote, his range is pretty narrow IMO, basically QQ+, AK+. I don't think he 4bets w/AQ for example. If he doesn't turn QQ,KK into bluff (which I doubt), and we suppose that he won't barrel flop and turn with AK/or Ax if we put it in his range(which I'm pretty sure of), then we have a pure bluffcather, but as I stated before, don't think he has too much Air here.

So IMO, NO, it's not a "Fist pump snapcall". It was on Stars, and I've played there quite a lot lately, and haven't seen too many people that will bluff 150 bb in this 4bet pot with pure air, especially when 83bb get in on the river. If the turn would have been the Ace, then it's an easy call, but I don't think that he got to the river with too many Air combos/A highs. The only exception could be AsKs, but I think most of the people would either x/call or bet halfpot or so the river, which is the right play IMO. 

And lastly why should I raise flop, even if I put him exactly on AA. Tbh I don't understand the connection between the two assumptions.

His range is fairly narrow because he's committed himself to stack off for 25BB vs the fish, but he should have AJ/AQ/AK and maybe KK for value here. Also, you're at the absolute top of your range, so folding here means you'd never call.

Yes, against the fish, his range isn't that narrow, but against my range that 3bets the utg and will continue vs his 4bet, he shouldn't have a too wide range, so it's burning money with J10s, or something like that. So his range isn't so wide.

Ok his value hands might be AJ/AQ/AK and KK. In his shoes, after 4betting my 3bet vs the (short) utg and my call, would anyone of you barrel the Ax part of your range on the flop and turn OOP? I wouldn't, and I don't think it's +EV. And if so, what would you do on blank river with your A high?? Is it a good strategy in a 300 bb 4bet pot?

And after somehow getting to the river. Is it a good play by his part with his TP hands to almost potsize shove the river? What kind of hands do I have that are worse and will call his shove? In other words, what kind of hands he gets value from? Isn't it more EV to bet smaller with his TP hands or IMO better to x/call, getting value from busted flusdraws for example? And sorry, but turning KK/QQ into bluff on the river doesn't make any sense to me, so I would exclude it out of his river range.  

And you're right that I'm on the top of my range, but my point is, that I couldn't find any Air hand in his range, and his value hands beat me.

Earlier I saw a good video on Bluefire from Niman Kenkre. It's a good one. It's title was "Know when to fold'em" or something like that. I know it's now oldschool, but it tried to show the same concept. He even folded in a very imbalanced way the Nut flush on a nonpaired board, and it made sense.

quit poker. Puke. Infact dont (good for the game). he could quit easily have a2-a5s hands and make 2 pair. hes gonna barrel off with alot of fds. If he got to the river with a bare ace somehow that would still be an easy value jam. dont know how you can even think about folding JJ set in a cash game where you have to expect good players to be reasonably balanced.

Ok it seems that I'm totally off in this topic. My bad. As I said, in-game I didn't have any doubt about calling, but afterwards it made me think, that maybe it's not that obvious.

And luckily for you I won't quit:) And you're right, with flushdraws it's a good play to shove river, but as I wrote earlier the only flushdraw that makes sense regarding his preflop play made TP on the river, and I'm still not convinced why it is so good to shove with it.

Daniel, please refrain from comments like these!! It's neither helpful, nor politely and it's not even correct!!!

In fact, everybody wanting to "snap" is wrong, imho. I'm out of office right now, i'll come back later, but I wanted to intervene as the tone got too rude for my opinion. This is not 2+2 and I'll do everything that it won't change.

What a messy spot man. I think I am going to call here simply because AsKs could be jamming on the river. With AA I think he would have bet bigger on flop, turn? Or rather should have bet bigger I guess. Which makes me believe that he's not worried about you having AsKs, AsQs type of hands here? But as you said it doesnt make much sense just jamming AsKs on the river. It's a super hard spot to analyze while you are playing, so I wouldn't feel bad making the call here.

So, back to business. :)

OK, first of all I have to admit that I didn´t pay attention to stack sizes, I actually thought it was an overbet for the given size, my bad. :( That was, why I was actually surprised that everybody said "snap" (in one way or another) ...

That said, I think we have to call, as we´re beaten by 3 combos, so two bluff combos would be more than enough, still I think it´s far from being a snap-call, it´s actually more of a crying call.

I mean, let´s think about what had happened if OP had posted the hand with inverted roles. What hands would you consider shoving the river with? And don´t come up with "busted flushdraws", we´re talking about hands that we would consider a good cold4bet against a shortstacked fish AND a competent reg, who has position on us - and which we would 2nd barrel the turn WITH the given flop-action.

I agree with fish that it seems more like a crying call given stacks and preflop action.

Considering you think he doesn't get to the river with AK, that eliminates the majority of his air hands  given preflop, so should we not shove turn? If it is possible he x/f's QQ+ on spade rivers would this not be best or do you think he will fold QQ+ to a turn jam too often?

Jvank -

I play it the same way. I mean yeah, he will show up with AA a bunch and it sucks, but I would still never ever fold here. People do have a wider range preflop than you are giving credit, they can bluff preflop with stuff like KQ and AJ/AQ for a cold 4bet (and then still be fine getting in vs UTG shorty). Especially on Stars.

Like BigFiszh said, you are facing a pot size bet, and you can only give him 3 value combos that beat you. That means there only needs to be 2 bluff or worse-for-value combos. I think the random freakout with AK, or preflop bluff with AJ or KQss, is more than enough to where I'm not going to fold the top of my range here.

As for the guys questioning OPs ability to play 400nl based on one hand, you are being ridiculous. I happen to have done some coaching sessions with him and he can probably play higher. Regardless though, it's not any of your business and not productive forum comments.

Fwiw jvank, I was agreeing with the line comments and not the "you shouldnt play this limit" comments!

Why can't he have two kings?  He shouldn't think you have AK or Ax very much unless it's AsKs.

Also, I'm not convinced you can call pre here against a range of QQ+ AK and maybe AQs AJs for bluffs.  Your SPR is a little over 3 and he has you dominated around half the time, and the other half he's drawing to 6+ outs. 

Oh, yea, the river.  You beat AsKs, AsQs, and any other AK/AQ/AJ combo he plays this way as well as QQ and KK (though I think shoving QQ would be a mistake).  I don't know why you would think about folding unless you have a strong read he's very nitty and unbalanced here. 

If we are villain and we have a tight range due to pre-flop, what do we expect to get called by when we jam river? If we can rarely have any bluffs and hero can have AKss/AQss, surely value betting KK would be turning it into a bluff. We are not getting called by QQ and likely not even KK, what can we value bet?

Surely we have a wide x/c range since hero can have a lot of busted flush draws and/or value bet weaker than AQ? Meaning that our betting range should, IMO, consist of only 2p+ hands, and I think only AJ if we don't have the As.

First of all, I'm not advocating folding, BigFiszh and Parker made it very clear that Villain doesn't need too many bluff combos to make it a call. Tbh I forgot about the one combo of AJ that I beat and would be a reasonable shove. Just that makes it a call I guess. 

But my question is, and would be very grateful, if someone explained it to me, why it is good to almost potsize shove one pair hands on the river. Tbh, in Villain's shoes, with AK I would x/call. Given that I'm IP my range is much wider than his, I can have all the busted flushdraws etc. So my point is I'm either snapfolding my busted draws to his shove or crushing his one pair hands. IMO my calling range here is AJ+ and AsQs for one pair hands. And because my range contains much more draws that might bluff the river, than valuehands, that call, and are worse than AK, it's a x/call for me with all of his Ax and KK hands. 

UpUpAndAway

Very good, valid points. This is a leak that I need to work on.

My first step will be to memorize your last sentence, it sums up very well how I should approach the game.

Thanks

you have invested almost half your stack already and having the second nuts is just a cooler if he has AA plus he can have AKs QQ KK in his range which u clearly beat

your opponent will think you slowrolled him if you even think about calling or folding here.

Jvank, did you call? I read a few Mid Stake hand histories and I found that none of them revealed the results. I wonder is this a common (or good) practice? If yes, why?

rlly interesting thread!

one thing that wasnt mentioned, mby villain didnt pay attention to stacksizes of fish due to multitabling etc... but otherwise, i do understand ops doubt but still we have to call.

but its always worth thinking about it and this rlly is a tuff spot unlikely 99% other threads that are posted where people want to fold 2nd nuts...