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[3/5 NL - LIVE] Ace high flush on non-pairing same suit river cards

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Posted by posted in Low Stakes

[3/5 NL - LIVE] Ace high flush on non-pairing same suit river cards

Note: posting in low stakes b/c of how the way the game plays. Bet-sizing is often unorthordox since players aren't usually keeping track of the size of pot but taking actions based on the real-money size of the bet.

These spots don't come up that often, but I still think it's important to think through them correctly. Incidentally, for me they came up ~24 hours apart - so my thinking on Hand 1 was still fresh when Hand 2 was evolving (w/ deeper stacks). My feeling about each was very different due to position/stack sizes/player even though both had tricky river cards.

Hand 1: ~$300 Effective

Blinds: $3/$5 | NLHE 9-handed
UTG: $300
BB: $550 (Hero)
Villain is A-B-C regular with very low bluffing frequency, probably close to 0% when bet to as opposed to being checked to.

Preflop ($8)
Hero was dealt QcTd
3 players limp, Hero checks BB

Flop ($20)
Kc 7d 4c
Checks through

Turn ($20)
Ac
Hero bets $20, only UTG calls

River ($60)
2c
Hero bets $75, UTG shoves for $205 more

If we think villain is incapable of shoving as a bluff over a strong lead, is there even a "range" to think about for him here? If river had paired the board with a club, and we both took the same line this would be a trivial fold against him. If this spot is also a trivial fold or close to one, what sort of pot odds would we consider calling if he was even shorter with his stack?

Hand 2: ~$850 Effective

Blinds: $3/$5 | NLHE 9-handed
UTG +1 : $1000
HJ: $80
Button: $850 (Hero)
Villain is unknown recreational player - he won a large pot in an overpair vs top pair situation where he shoved turn for more than a pot-sized bet and was called.

Preflop ($8)
Hero was dealt Ad4d
UTG+1 raises to $20, HJ calls, Hero calls

Flop ($65)
3d 9d 7h
UTG+1 checks, HJ shoves for $60, Hero raises to $125, UTG+1 calls

Turn ($375)
8d
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $175, UTG+1 calls

River ($725)
6d
UTG+1 shoves - $530 to hero

I am unable to assign a thought process to villain here for his line ...

5 Comments

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Parker Muir 12 years, 3 months ago
I don't understand, are you thinking about folding? I would be calling both of these so fast that I might strain my shoulder muscle throwing the chips in. In both hands you can only be beat by one single combination of a straight flush. That's just not enough to even think about ever folding.

I know your read is that neither of these guys ever bluff. But even if I had played 200hrs of live poker with each guy, and never seen either one bluff once during the 200hrs, I would still be calling both of these.
james 12 years, 3 months ago
Agreed. If these guys happen to be coolering you when you hold as close to the nuts as you can get then it's going to happen close to never so it's barely worth thinking about. On the other hand, if they happen to actually have some bluffing range, which seems fairly likely, you're making HUGE mistakes by folding these kinds of hands.
DickDollars 12 years, 3 months ago
My read is not that neither guy ever bluffs. Only the case w/ hand 1/villain 1.

I actually think they're very different hands/actions, though they have some board similarities. Of the 2 hands, I actually think hand 2 is the snap call though I am still interested in what people think of villain's line and what range of hands he would play this way.

Why would you call hand 1 so fast? Would you do the same if the river card were a board pairing club? At what stack depth/raise size would you think about folding given the emphasis you are placing on the single combination of straight flush cards he can have vs the action taking place?

LimpyLoo 12 years, 3 months ago
I'd say with live players like this, it's more likely that they don't appreciate relative hand-strength on 4-flush boards than they have the single hand-combination in the deck that beats you.
DickDollars 12 years, 3 months ago
Villain in Hand 2 did not show up w/ a flush. Given his line, I never considered folding. 1 of the reasons I posted the hand is to understand why he would take that line, and to think through how weak of a hand I might consider calling w/ here other than the near nuts that I hold.



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