3 bet ranges Bluff:value ratios
Posted by DreaDk
Posted by
DreaDk
posted in
Low Stakes
3 bet ranges Bluff:value ratios
Hey guys. Lately I've been toying with some 3 betting ranges since my overall 3 bet is little low (around 6.5%). I'm 3 betting decent amount from the blinds but I just can't get my self to 3 bet more IP, I'm just afraid I might end up overbluffing. I know 3 betting is very dependent on people's F3B stat but is there any general 3 betting ratio that you can use vs decent regular and just adapt from there? Is something like 50-50 ratio horrible? I'm somewhere around 35% bluffs-65% value ,depending on position but I never really go above that. Also would appreciate if you guys could share your 3 bet stats by position so I can have some general idea.
EDIT:
So after digging a little I saw some general 3 bet positional stats :
MP: 4%
CO: 6%
BUTTON: 8%
Now I'm not quite sure how to obtain these but I went ahead and tried creating some ranges. Problem is they ended up looking insane. My logic is if we are 3 betting 4% vs utg in pretty much all positions then in CO we should 3 bet around 8% vs MP to obtain the desired 6% 3 bet(Average of both positions available to 3 bet against in the CO). This by itself is already too much. Funny thing happens when we I ended up constructing BUTTON vs CO range. If I 3 bet 4% vs EP, 8% vs MP , then vs CO I should be around 12% to obtain the necessary 8%. Using a polarized range in the last scenario I end up with more like 60% bluffs vs 40% value which seems very questionable to me but then again 8% BUTTON 3 bet doesn't sound too high in theory. If anyone can correct me here , go ahead. I love experimenting but it is already a very drastic change in my game and could become costly so would love to hear opinions.
Loading 24 Comments...
Forget value and bluffs. Pre flop there is no such thing. Have you considered playing 3 bet/fold from all positions except big blind? Its a good simplified strategy that works well esp in high rake games. Obviously if you adopt this strategy you'll be 3 betting a linear range.
I think that "value" and "bluff" are imperfect terms that are used for simplicity's sake in discussion; the dichotomy really only exists on the river.
I've been hearing more talks of simplified strategies lately and I think it's pretty interesting. Would you ever switch to a flatting range on the BTN with a fish in the BB, or some other similar scenario?
Yes! I think flatting becomes a really good idea in spots where there are recreational players in the blinds.
zinom1 comment is great.
Also, check out Snowie preflop advisor. Those ranges are quite solid and work well as a starting point.
I dislike the linear 3 betting strategy against very strong ranges. They are way too many nitty players who will over fold to 3 bets and call/4 bet with a very strong range. Against these players 3 betting all the garbage can be very profitable and pretty easy to play. But once you start 3 betting AJ,KJ and you hit the top pair you will just end up being dominated way too often.
I'll make sure to check snowie but heard there are some questionable decisions in there.
Well if my strat is 3bet or fold than it doesn't make sense to 3 bet polarized.
Example:
If I open to 3bb in CO, you 3bet to 9bb OTB and I 4bet to 22bb you need to defend with at least ~40% or I will auto-profit.
Say you now are playing a jam or fold strategy vs my 4bet, jamming TT+, AQs+ and AKo (3.8%). That means you can 3bet 3.8/0.4 = 9.5% without folding too much vs my 4bets.
If you only jam JJ+ and AK (3% range) vs my 4bet you can 3bet 3/0.4 = 7.5% without folding too much vs 4bets.
If you wanna 3bet 12% you must be willing to defend 12*0.4 = 4.8% range
Very interesting @Zamadhi108. Thanks.
@Zinom1
That is the most logical strategy in the higher rake environments in my opinion, unless you literally have just an absolutely huge amount of water buffalos.
"I dislike the linear 3 betting strategy against very strong ranges. They are way too many nitty players who will over fold to 3 bets and call/4 bet with a very strong range. Against these players 3 betting all the garbage can be very profitable and pretty easy to play. But once you start 3 betting AJ,KJ and you hit the top pair you will just end up being dominated way too often. "
nitty players over fold to 3bets, and call/4bet strong. It sounds like the solution is 3bet Linear then. The idea that you are going to hit top pair with AJ and KJ and be dominated at some frequency....Yeah.....and... lol....welcome to poker
I think my 3betting range IP overall vs RFI vs UTG,MP,CO is slightly more than 10%.
How do you come up with a certain % of hands to 3B? e.g. MP vs UTG, I know we want to 3B all our 'value' but then how do we know how wide to 3B w a linear range.
As far as how I know, I actually don't 'KNOW'. I'm making assumptions based off of how my player pool reacts and how other players who are playing slightly higher stakes than me play (some good regs i know at 200nl). By the way mine maybe is too high but I see a lot of players in my pool aren't reacting to it well and over fold preflop and underdefend postflop or just make a lot of mistakes.
here is an example:
Assumed opening range from UTG:
AA-22,AKo-AJo,KQo,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s,98s,87s,76s
3bet vs UTG open
MP: TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
CO: 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
BU: 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+
SB: 88+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+
Thanks a ton, that should help me quite a bit at 50NL :)
This is obviously wrong but I am curious about designing a polarized 3-betting range.
"Value" 3-bets: JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs = 40 combos
"Bluff" 3-bets: 99, 1010, AQs, A5s, KQs, J10s, 109s, 87s, 65s = 40 combos
I know that's probably super wrong and some wouldn't be considering bluffs from certain positions versus certain opens but I'm just curious if anyone could help my thinking process here.
That range is not polarised and read one of the Janda books maybe to improve your fundamentals.
TexasFoldUmmm for better understanding, check out Peter Clarke´s new video Three Types of 3-Bet Ranges
I have app of no limit hold em. How is it not polarized if there is bluffs in there?
What middle hands is not included in the range?
I would say only spot where its important to "polarize" / 3bet some junk hands is BB v SB. Maybe BB v BTN too, especially the wider they open.
Absolutely and BB vs BTN is more polar the more BTN folds. That can happen when people folds too much or you use a very large size. 3bet ranges also get more polar once you get shallow enough that 4bet shoving is a thing.
I've seen a lot of people 3bet 67s, 89s EP vs MP or EP vs CO low suited connectors arguing that you are rarely dominated and they are easier to play again an utg range do you find this wrong?
Yes, it's fine if people fold enough to the 3bet. They do have pretty poor blocker to 4bet and cold 4bet ranges, and you should therefore generally avoid 3betting them in earlier positions than BB. One exception can be BTN vs CO where CO folds too much and SB and/or BB cold 4bet too little.
For this specific scenario you probably need to use a slightly larger 3bet size like 3,5x or OOP needs to fold close to 70% to the 3bet or something really high which actually can be reasonable for EP to do vs a MP 3bet range.
Kalupso thanks really cleared up some misconceptions.
Thanks fellas!
Be the first to add a comment