Yeah thats included as well. The problem is that a lot of times if i 5b jam, im getting called 80% of the time because people are severely underbluffing. So im just thinking maybe just call 4bets with everything

Its not that were bluffing them, its that when we 4b and get called, were doing well, but when we call the jam, were doing horrible.

There is some misconception in this thinking anywhere:
1. Do you think ppl tend to never jam JJ/AK?
2. Do ppl never flat 4bets with KK+?
3. Did you take Positions into account accordingly? There is a huge difference between a UTG- and a SB-Jammingrange
4. On which amount of data do you rely?

I guess its pretty important to always have a plan with a hand before raising (2bet/3bet/...). And if you are feared that you get jammed holding QQ and should not call then (which per definition would mean you bluffed), then IMO its way better to not even 4bet them. Its not like you are doing terrible in this spot with QQ either.

hey thanks for engaging in this post.
1:it depends on positions of course, some people are more liberal and some arent, but generally in spots were AK is mainly a jam, which is every spot except bb v utg 4b, i think people are flatting more frequently, and in spots were AA is mainly a flat vs a 4b (where 3bettor is IP) people play it mainly as a jam. I also think QQ isnt jammed as often. people are probably ahead of me on how to adjust to the pool being so tight which is probably why.
2:some good regs do, very seldom though given it is 25z
3:no. I dont think positions really matter as much as hand strength since QQ+ AK are all supposed to be fine in 5b pots. most of the spots have been in LP though.
4:about 150k hands

I see your point but I disagree when it comes to thinking just because we are 4b folding means its a bluff. We dont get any better hands to fold so it cant be a bluff in that sense. Its like saying we are bluffing with TT and AQo/KQs when we 3b fold hj v lj. it has mergey properties, namely the KQ since we get called by worse Qx and Kx hands but also fold out a lot of Ax. and TT is a hand thats good enough to 3b and performs well when called, but poorly vs a 4b range. When I look at 4bps with AK, QQ+, I'm making a ton of money, but the only hand that makes money in 5bps is AA. I do see your point, I can flat 3bets more frequently and not 4b as often with these hands and adjust to players of course. That way I keep hands I dominate in their range. But I also think theres merit in 4b folding some of these hands because they do really well in 4bps but horrid in 5bps, it also denies equity and get value from worse pairs and suited bws.

One thing as well is that people are under 4bing severely(player dependent ofc) at 8.25% and gi vs 5bets 74% of the time. so in these spots I can just overfold to the 4bs but I'm still unsure of what adjustments to make with specific hands. the pool on average is only folding 25% of the time to 5bs, even im pretty imbalanced 4betting 13% on average and folding 38% of the time to 5bs. and if i adjust like my db suggests, i would want to only stack off with AA. KK even becomes dicey since its break even. the sample size is small but i'm sure the pattern is still there at these stakes. on stars out of 44 hands that i've had QQ,KK and AK in a 5bp, i ran into AA 22 of them, and on a softer site its 18/50 for a total of 42.5% on both sites. that is an absurdly high number. even with a QQ+AK range, AA only makes up 18% of its range. sure it could just be card distribution since 150k hands isnt nearly a lot of hands, but i still think the pattern is there. the only hand that is making money in 5bps is AA on stars and KK/AA on the softer site. which makes me think 4b folding is a fairly decent adjustment with QQ and AK. since when i 4b, i get folds 50% of the time, calls 40% of the time and jammed on 10%. so we capitalize on extra fold equity, and also by getting value from the hands that call (nice to know its very rarely KK/AA) and also since they are 5betting very seldomly, we can just 4b fold a lot. Also another thing too, is btn should always flat AA vs a co 4bet, so when we look at the equity of AK and QQ vs a correct range its 46 and 52%. but if people are always piling in AA we have 40% and 44.6%. KK has a ton of equity vs a correct range but once they start jamming AA every time we go from 73% to 56%, which is fucking insane if you consider rake, we only net 6bbs... so to me the obvious adjustment is to just 4b fold everything that isnt AA/KK vs most, and flat 3bs more often but still 4b/fold QQ and AK for value since they perform very well in 4bps and poorly in 5bps and call off against specific opponents.

its only about 150k hands. and i filtered for 4b and 5bps so it is adjusted for times ive gotten folds. the problem im facing is that everyone is severely underbluffing. they stack off 75% of the time when they 4b, and when they 5b, its way tighter than optimal. so im looking for insights on how to adjust to this. since in 5bps im losing a ton and my winrate could be 33% higher if i just broke even in them. and the suckouts you mention isnt really important, because even if I am running above EV, the EV of these hands is negative in 5bps

How many of these hands are 4-bet by somebody? Out of those, how many does somebody 5-bet?

Yeah man i agree. Overall when ive had ak in a 5bp i ran jnto AA or KK 9/19 times and down 10bis in this spot alone. I ran QQ into KK/AA 6/13 times and ran KK into AA 6/14 times. So it seems to me that the best adjustment is to 4b fold AK and QQ depending on player and positions since its expected to be losing, not even just in practice but when you run the equities of a range where people dont jam JJ or TT at all. Wheres the incentive for us to 4b call TT-QQ when were co when bn always has AA in their 5b range. What makes these hands profitable calls is the assumption that AA is pure calling. When we add AA to a 5b jam range were losing so much damn money. Can you imagine KK having 47% equity hj v co if they always jam AA. If we 4b to 20bbs and get jammed on, calling is netting us more than folding but its crazy to think that KK is still netting us less than what we invested in the pot. Our main incentive is to play mainly 4bet pots it seems, people arent 5b jamming enough and when we get our 4b called we can be fairly confident its like 99-JJ, some AK and AQs and maybe suited bws . In my db this past month im up 40bis in 4bps and down 8bis in 5bps. If i didnt run good in them i would be down 15bis or more