25NL - learning how to think about ranges
Posted by Mushmellow
Posted by
Mushmellow
posted in
Low Stakes
25NL - learning how to think about ranges
SB: adamhgballs: $25
BB: Mushmellow: $25
BB: Mushmellow: $25
So far when I've been analyzing my hands, I've just been looking at my two cards and trying to figure out what the most optimal play is. Since I want to advance my level of poker thinking to the next step, I need to try to figure out how I would play my entire range of hands given my sequence of actions and I want to work hard to make sure my lines are balanced.
In general, the whole idea (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we want to balance out the hands that we valuebet, with bluffs so we make our opponent indifferent to calling or folding. So if we are betting a polarized range on the river it will include our value hands and our air, which is the top parts and bottom parts of are range respectively. To my understanding, I think the math behind this has to do with the pot odds you offer your opponent on their call.
Example. OTR you make a pot sized bet. Your opponent since he is getting 2:1 odds (33%) and let's say all he has is a bluffcatcher so he has to have a hand that beats your hand 33% of the time. Let's say I have a range that is 50% air, then my opponent will profit by calling. But if I have a range that has 33% air and 67% value hands than no matter what choice my opponent makes it won't really matter because I basically make him so he can't profit off a call or fold against my polarized river bet. This is the premise of the whole GTO thing right?
For the middle of our range, I'm assuming that sometimes we want to be check calling, as it let's our opponent incorrectly bluff his missed draws etc and then we can get value out of the middle of our range by check calling to let our opponent bluff the bottom of his range. In this hand, I need help figuring out where my AJo lies in my range in the river after I have raised my opponents limp, bet flop, bet turn, and am deciding what the best river line is.
In general, the whole idea (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we want to balance out the hands that we valuebet, with bluffs so we make our opponent indifferent to calling or folding. So if we are betting a polarized range on the river it will include our value hands and our air, which is the top parts and bottom parts of are range respectively. To my understanding, I think the math behind this has to do with the pot odds you offer your opponent on their call.
Example. OTR you make a pot sized bet. Your opponent since he is getting 2:1 odds (33%) and let's say all he has is a bluffcatcher so he has to have a hand that beats your hand 33% of the time. Let's say I have a range that is 50% air, then my opponent will profit by calling. But if I have a range that has 33% air and 67% value hands than no matter what choice my opponent makes it won't really matter because I basically make him so he can't profit off a call or fold against my polarized river bet. This is the premise of the whole GTO thing right?
For the middle of our range, I'm assuming that sometimes we want to be check calling, as it let's our opponent incorrectly bluff his missed draws etc and then we can get value out of the middle of our range by check calling to let our opponent bluff the bottom of his range. In this hand, I need help figuring out where my AJo lies in my range in the river after I have raised my opponents limp, bet flop, bet turn, and am deciding what the best river line is.
Preflop
($0.35)
(2 Players)
Mushmellow was dealt
J
A
adamhgballs calls $0.15, Mushmellow raises to $0.75, adamhgballs calls $0.75
adamhgballs calls $0.15, Mushmellow raises to $0.75, adamhgballs calls $0.75
Opponent is loose passive. I've been raising his limps for value so I make it $1. I've been doing this with my stronger hands preflop and have been checking back my junk hands and taking the free flop.
Flop
($2.00)
J
9
4
(2 Players)
Mushmellow bets $1.50,
adamhgballs calls $1.50
I think I continuation bet this flop with most of my range that I raise his limp with preflop.
Turn
($5.00)
J
9
4
T
(2 Players)
Mushmellow bets $3.50,
adamhgballs calls $3.50
Once he calls on the flop, I am going to bet like this with all my strong hands (two pairs, sets, top pairs, straights) and also my good draws (flush draws, back door flush draws, pair flush draw, pair straight draws etc).
River
($12.00)
J
9
4
T
6
(2 Players)
When the river sort of blanks off, I need to figure out where my top pair top kicker stands in my river range. My river range is going to consist of some of my missed flush draws, wiffed straight draws, and maybe some marginal pair draws that didn't get there. It's also going to have all my two-pairs, sets, straights, and top pair hands in it too.
How does my TPGK stand in this range? If it's in the middle of my range should I be check calling here, or is it more in the top of my range and I should valuebet it. I think since we are headsup, and villain has already shown to be "bad-passive" preflop it seems like we have an easy valuebet of 2/3 pot or so. Against a more bluff happy opponent, we might want to check call so he can bluff his wiffed draws.
Regarding sizing, another thing we could do is tailor our bet sizings to the strength of our hands. But, I want to be eventually playing bigger stakes against good opponents so I think this is bad practice since against competent players we don't want to be giving away this obvious bet sizing tells when we could just create a balanced range, and bet the same amount with our bluffs and value bets.
Sorry for the long rant, but I really want to figure out how the better players construct their ranges and get this thought process down so I can move my technical game to the next level.
Thanks!
How does my TPGK stand in this range? If it's in the middle of my range should I be check calling here, or is it more in the top of my range and I should valuebet it. I think since we are headsup, and villain has already shown to be "bad-passive" preflop it seems like we have an easy valuebet of 2/3 pot or so. Against a more bluff happy opponent, we might want to check call so he can bluff his wiffed draws.
Regarding sizing, another thing we could do is tailor our bet sizings to the strength of our hands. But, I want to be eventually playing bigger stakes against good opponents so I think this is bad practice since against competent players we don't want to be giving away this obvious bet sizing tells when we could just create a balanced range, and bet the same amount with our bluffs and value bets.
Sorry for the long rant, but I really want to figure out how the better players construct their ranges and get this thought process down so I can move my technical game to the next level.
Thanks!
Loading 11 Comments...
What do you think about potting turns and rivers? Like you've said, your read is that he is a bad-passive player, hence should not attempt to bluff a draw. In this case, in order to maximize, I think we should always betting our made hands. I think given that all the draws have missed he may call us down lighter.
Bet sizing is still an area of confusion for me, I'm not sure what the thought process should be for sizing different streets. Potting might scare villain of his marginal holdings and I might only get called by better hands. My turn sizing is 70% but maybe I could have got away with 80% of the size of the pot...not sure though.
On the river, I agree that I should be betting for value against this type of opponent and probably could have gone for a 1/2 PSB OTR to get value out of not only his top pair weaker kickers, but some of his pair gutshot hands that might call because loose passives stations don't like to fold.
Any other thoughts on this subject? I think I might have wrote too long of a post here and scared everyone away, sorry guys!
It sounds like your on the right track. However, I think one additional thing to consider is villain's range. AJ is effectively the nuts against most fish's ranges on the river, so it seems like a clear value bet to me. This is probably a combo that belongs in your "standard' river bet sizing. You still have the near nuts but b/c you block villain's Jx combos, sizing more standard or even on the smaller side and gaining value from his Tx/9x stuff seems best. There are better hands in your range to check/call here, namely stuff like KJ/QJ/J8s as well as some Tx's. Keep in mind you can also have a ch/r range on this river.
Thank you for your input here. Thinking about things like blockers is something I still need to work on. What type of hands would be in my ch/r range on this river?
Think about sizing your river bet based on villains range, if that range contains more weak hands then bet as small as 30% pot
How does AJ stand in your river value range? It's near the bottom, since the worst we'd value bet would be KJ. Most of our value range consists of two pair or better.
I would definitely bet versus a tougher opponent, but I don't think this guy is often going to call with worse. Most of the hands are one pair hands that probably picked up straight draw equity on the turn, but didn't get there. 97/98/QT/Q4 etc. probably won't call the river. There are more weak two pair hands that Villian played passively, that will call. Hands like T9/J9/TJ etc.
Assuming this guy doesn't spazz out on the river every time we check to him, I'd probably check it down.
Your assumptions about GTO are correct. Don't level yourself versus a fish, though.
Thanks a lot for your advice Chael! I did opt to check here and it went check check and I shipped the pot. Not sure what villain ended up having since ACR doesn't show the mucked cards but I'm assuming it's those type of missed draws or pair plus draws that didn't get there that you mentioned.
What do you mean by "Don't level yourself versus a fish"? Is this like where you justify their bad post flop calls and pay off on the river when they get there with draws they didn't have the proper odds to call with in the first place?
Don't make too many assumptions, especially when narrowing a range and when thinking about GTO.
Think about Villians thought process, and manipulate your play accordingly.
The most optimal style isn't always the most technical one.
Mush,
Just by looking at the hand, I would put AJo into my river C/C range for balancing purposes,
and it should be the Top of my river Check back range.
Thanks guys! :)
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