25/50 6m, Interesting Turn Spot
Posted by Sean Lefort
Posted by
Sean Lefort
posted in
High Stakes
25/50 6m, Interesting Turn Spot
Another hand from the past. Figured we needed a non-HU hand in here and thought this was an interesting one. I don't recall reads although because I don't recognize the name I think it's safe to say he's roughly an unknown but likely not a fish. Weak description but it's all we got.
Again, I'll wait to get some responses before I join in.
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It seems like an okay strategy, as there are many hands (like this) that would hate to bet-fold, and you take away their positional advantage of seeing how you react on various rivers after making a turn call with (what likely would otherwise be) great pot odds. We could definitely build ranges to balance this, I think. I think we'd definitely need a bet small range as well.
Seems like here, he should have very few flushes. He called a 3bet, you have Kc, and Axcc might be likely to raise flop, yeah?
My guess (please don't feel bad correcting me if I'm wrong, because I haven't played much NL in a long time) is that he should have a lot of Jx w/ no club or underpair w/ or w/o club hands. Rarely he'll have sets.
I'd expect that he'll be folding the majority of this range to a shove (since I expect a lot of it to be underpairs). Hmm.
Seems to me like there is a range imbalance in your favor. I'm not sure how that means we want to react, other than to be betting (some amount) a lot.
The downside to betting small is that your range gets weakened on many rivers (equity wise) AND many rivers can mess with your range so that he can make better decisions than you- Qc rivers, you almost can't be bluffing, 9c river, what do you do with KK no club?
So yeah. I don't know if this makes me a fish, but I'd like to shove a balanced range of hands like yours, overpairs, occasionally weak flushes, and bet small with a more polarized range of sets, flushes, two pair, AAc type hands, along with AKss and a few other airy hands... Often following through on rivers.
I'm all in.
Anyways, I came here to say that I really like Phil's post and line, but of course you have to be balancing it. The more I think about c-shoving tho, the more I'm fine with it, especially since we don't really mind the turn checking through too much. Thoughts?
i could see myself going allin turn if this was the beginning of a session because then it would be more profitable later. but in the normal course of play i wouldnt try to be making a good turn overshove range. im always betting 1250 and shoving all the rivers except Jx i think.
i dont really c/r good hands here because people check behind black 77 n stuff too much. also we dont have a reason to think hes floaty (where we could gain an extra bet by c/shoving a range). so i guess im not checking and then putting more money in much, but i think thats OK because i'm betting turn and shoving riv so much they cant make money by floating the flop and hoping for a turn check.
all of this is said matter-of-factly but its not like im sure/secure in these ranges. would love some more discussion
I think you all made really good points and feel like a fish for agreeing with Phil and deciding to jam before reading Gabe's and agreeing and deciding to bet small. I guess that means it's close.
Todd I don't particularly like chk/jam unless you have the read that he's going to bet those types of hands enough. In general I think most good players don't bet/fold hands often on this turn because (a) there just simply isn't a large % of his range with the appropriate equity and (b) even when hands do have that sort of equity, they may decide checking is better.
The thing about setting up ranges in spots like this is that a hand like the one we have immediately brings to our attention the appeal of having a jamming range. I believe that *in a vacuum*, jamming is the best play with this hand. Reason being is that I expect villain to have a hand like {AJ/KJ/QJ} a very high % of the time given that there are a ton of combos and they all play this way pf/flop ~100% of the time. With these hands, I expect him to often jam over a turn bet giving us something in the 35%-40% range equitywise (agianst that range) and needing only ~30%+ to call. I think overall we need to fold to a jam after betting small (as discussed) because of the frequency of his stronger hands and this essentially has us making a mistake (against JX) a high % of the time, something that really sucks. By jamming we in turn put him in the tough spot and potentially make him indifferent to calling with a hand like QJ if we balance our range accordingly.
The problem with jamming is that if we don't balance our range, he has an easy call with most of his bluff-catching range and it's worth a lot of equity. In order to balance and make him not be printing money with QJ we need to make sure we're jamming some strong hands too. Okay, easy enough, let's do it. But if I had of posted this HH and we held QQ or 86cc, I doubt that it would have been intuitive to jam them to protect the times we're jamming KcQ type hands. So we really need to be sharp in our book-keeping skills to introduce jamming ranges in spots like this if we want to avoid opening ourselves up to some significant exploitation.
So if there turn call range is mostly mid strength 1 pair hands and pair + fl draws and the occasional 2 pair+, occasional because 2 pairs and sets will shove the turn a decent amount and because there are very few flush combos (AQ, 89, 78, 79, Q9, not sure how much wider he is to raise call pf) we can pretty comfortably bet turn and shove most rivers and are now getting a way better price on the river bluff compared to overbet shoving the turn even though some times we have to bet fold and can't realize our equity.
Jamming turn is gonna be crazy hard to balance, and the times we have a monster, he rarely will have that on turn on a board like this, as he will 4-bet JJ most of the time, so there are very few set combos, and sets + combodraws will raise flop a high % to (i think?).
My main concern thou is the first time we do this (jam turn), i think most opponents will be very inclined to make a hero call when we take that line, because this is such a strange line to take with a nutted hand and he will know this.
The line we take here scream "i have a combodraw kinda hand that looks for maximum FE". (Who have ever shoved AA, JJ, or a complete flush and such in this spot?)
I just think the standard b/b/shove line is the most profitable line here, calling river in his shoes with a weak jack or an underpair if we three barrell will be tougher than calling a turn shove i think.
But then somebody has to do the math if he check/raises us on the turn instead also...
With 2,350 in the pot, wouldn't you prefer check-shoving that spot and possibly get another 1500 or so?
He will bet his AJ type of hands for protection and he may turn hands like 88 into a bluff. He's not calling with 88 to an overshove.
But then again, I'm not a worldclass player, like yourself.
With both being good ideas , jamming on turn and Bet turn / shove river .. I would prefer bet / shove most of the time i guess. With that Turn call he represents hands like AJ/KJ/QJ some pair type of hands as bluff catchers,.and in this range i dont see he s jamming over a turn bet except the hands AcJx QcJx well unless he s not well balanced in this line with his bluffs. In case he calls on the turn... It s more like except the cards that hits his range like Ahds Qhd Jhd we are good to jam. With that I assume most of the time his hand will not improve so we might be getting a better fold equity by the most of the river cards.
bet/calling kinda sucks and we dont mind the turn going ch ch giving us the opportunity to realize our equity
i think shoving this turn makes our hand kind of f/u and unless were doing this for value w some of our bigger hands (which is sub optimal vs his range) we'll be perceived as having pretty much exactly what we have and this will allow villain to play perfectly vs us
Dont like the check raise lines for the reasons people have stated that people check back their mid strength hands too often on this turn and have a pretty polarised betting range, and given that its pretty hard to get to this turn with air in villains spot there isnt going to be much of the weaker part of their betting range that villain is bet folding
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