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2/5 live, QQ <55

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Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

2/5 live, QQ <55

SM $1,300
BB(hero) $1060
UTG $900
UTG1 $1130(villain)
MP1 $1,300
MP2 $1,200
HJ $750
CO $500
BTN $900

UTG straddles $10 villain calls $10 mp1 calls $10 Hero makes $60 with QhQd, UTG folds villain flats MP folds
Flop($140)
Js2s2h
Hero bets $115 villain flats (pot $370)
Turn 5s
Hero bets $165 villain flats (pot $700)
River 5h
Hero bets $365($325 left in stack)
Villain shoves, hero has to call another $390( I might have gotten the stack sizes wrong pre but I know for sure he had about $70 more when the hands started)

Hero tank calls villain flips over quad 5's.

My thought
I have history with villain, he is pretty aggressive never folds pp ,TPTK on flop or turn( specially if he has redraws ) I was betting for value from a tptk tpgk all the way, didn't think he has 2 or a 5 in his range the way the action came down( am I bad with my read) and thought that I could make him fold a baby flush on the river!(if he ever has one in this spot)
The way the hand played out pre and flop I couldn't give him any spades combos that he could have called $50 with OOP against the whole table except me.(he only has position on me)
I mean I guess he could try to turn 66-99 into a bluff here if he thinks I could lay down 10's in this spot.

I don't even know what to ask!

Did I play it bad?
Do I have to check fold turn?
Do I bet fold river?
Do I check fold river on a double paired board?
Am I just unlucky in this spot?


I am just totally confused, lost two huge pots in the last 2 weeks to turns and rivers.

Thoughts, advice on how to play my hand differently!

18 Comments

Loading 18 Comments...

Elgatonegro99 12 years, 1 month ago
I think betting for value on the turn and river is a little bit optimistic. On the turn he has way more hands that beat you in his range than hands you beat. If you check the turn you allow him to bet his floats and worse hands, instead, when you bet, his continuing range is just crushing your hand. I would have c/c turn and c/decide on the river.
Edichka1 12 years, 1 month ago
What kind of hands could he possibly have that crush me on a J22, 5 turn, when he limped called my raise from UTG 1, I just don't see him having Jacks full, cause he just limped, so I guess quad 2's(I am beat on the flop) and some SC spade combos(he doesn't shove river on a paired board)...
Elgatonegro99 12 years ago
Live players generally have plenty of flushes in their range. Some might even have JJ. That is the reason why I like checking back the turn. By checking the turn you keep his range nice and wide. If he is calling down with any Jack and pairs 22-JJ, fire away!
WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
I think the most tragic part of the hand is leaving yourself basically a minraise back then calling it off when theres like no chance he s ever bluffing here. If you have a read that this player is going to limp/call AJo, then call down here what you should be doing is sizing the turn larger so you can jam the river no problem. This seems thin though as your looking to get TP to call off 200bb (although its effectively a 5/10 game with the straddle) in a spot where theres not a ton for you to be unloading with as a bluff and your showing a lot of strength. Really depends how these games play as to what is going to be best.
BigFiszh 12 years, 1 month ago
Nah, sorry, that was not my intention. :-D But I guess you agree with me that this hand does not look played optimally, right?
Edichka1 12 years, 1 month ago
There was so much money in the pot on the river!!!
To be honest I tanked for a long time, had a feeling I was beat and called anyway hope to see Jx hand, do you think I should bet fold turn or bet turn check fold river?
WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
I think bet turn and c/f river is best. If you think AJo can be in his range and he ll call it off on the river I'd size the turn so that you shove for idk 3/4 pot or so. I don't think this is a default so I'd want a read first.
nutinsider 12 years, 1 month ago
villain is stubborn with top pair type of hand (or even 99, hell even AK in this spot is about the same as 99). I've learned (through members here and live play) that since his hand has showdown value, a live player is almost never going to turn that into a bluff. (i played a hand similar to this, edichkal) So by the river we can assume three possible things i think:

He has a super strong made hand that was obtained by being stubborn and hitting a random set or quads.

He has a drawing hand (fd) that got there and wants to get value thinly from KK, QQ or AA

He turned a one pair type hand (aj) into a bluff with 0 fold equity on the river?

SO we have established that the last option is never going to happen, so it's more likely that the scenario is one of the first two.

Kinda a bad spot where your bad luck was compounded by poor 5th street play.

Betting or checking turn is prolly fine, I don't see either option being WAY better than another....betting is fine because i do believe you will be getting called by a worse hand, but you can also get exploited oop by someone who made their draw, checking is good for pot control, but its bad if villain has the one pair hand and would have called another bet...but the river play is what stands out the most to me here...yuck.
nma 12 years ago
Let's compose villain's limping range and see how he plays the flop. I would discount 2x by the way this was played. He could have a flush, or a jack. I like your flop play. However, the turn hits his range pretty hard. Seeing as you don't have a queen of spades it is fine to bet one more time.. (I'd be more inclined to check with a queen of spades in my hand.) Once he calls the turn I think the river is a check fold. If you check and he bombs you know he's never doing that with a jack so your range is crushed. There aren't a lot of sickos who are capable for bluffing this river. Your small bet sizing on the turn is good too because it allows Jx to continue (especially if he has a spade redraw)
m3SLYFOX 12 years ago
I think both preflop and flop play is good, but I disagree with both the turn and espicially the river play. Lets start from the turn: His range here consist mostly of Jx, FDs, 33-88 (expect him to play 99-JJ different preflop) and 1-2 monsters he smooth calls w/on the flop (22,A2s). I just dont think he has too many floats here, so when the flush completes on the turn, I think its very optimistic trying to get value on both turn and the river with 100bbs starting stacks (considering the straddle). You can choose two lines here, which I think is almost equally as good: Line 1. You can bet the turn, because its such a good barrell card for all your AK-AJ hands with a spade and he will be more inclined to call with most of the flop calling range (Jx, maybe 33-88). After betting the turn, you can check so many rivers that he wont bluff, because when if/when he calls the turn, he has to put you on a AK-AJ type of hand with a spade or just plain air. Therefore, when you then check almost all rivers (2 or Q is a valuebet) he will think he has enough showdown value to check behind = QQ wins. All his monsters will either raise the turn or the river, so its an easy fold when he raises the turn or the river. Line 2. Somewhat similar thinking process as line 1, but instead of betting turn, you check trying to rep a hand thats giving up. If/when he bets the turn, we can check call hoping he is betting Jx and 33-88 for protection, because he thinks we have some sort of AK-AJ hand with a spade. On almost all river, we can check/fold, because again, he will think he has enough showdown value to check behind with all his Jx and 33-88 hands and his bets consists almost always of hands that beat us like 22,A2,55 and flushes. Back to the turn, if he checks behind, its a very easy value bet for us on a whole lot of river cards, given that he is giving up alot of value checking behind the turn with a monster (i think). As played, I would check fold the river very quickly. (Sorry for bad english)
Edichka1 12 years ago
m3SLYFOX
I agree with how you are breaking down the hand, let me ask you this question, since betting turn for value is kind of a big question mark since we are only getting called
1) worse..: AJ with an AXs and all your mid PP that I don't think float since a spade hits the turn.
2) Better.. A5 A6s A10s or some other SC he had with a 5 in it.

Forget a about what I posted(end result).. What if a non spade 10 or J or 6 or any other non spade hits(except a Q obviously ), if we bet turn "for value vs worse"
Do we check call river or do we bet fold or bet call a shove?

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