£1k nl Live game, 300bb deep oop in 4b pot. Line check please.
Posted by Oliver Price
Posted by
Oliver Price
posted in
High Stakes
£1k nl Live game, 300bb deep oop in 4b pot. Line check please.
V is a good capable reg, who I've played a lot with.
The game is playing 6/7 handed at this point. I have £3k, V has me covered.
V opens utg+1 to £35, it folds round to me in the BB, I 3b to £120 with QQ, V 4b's to £300, I call
(This was V's 2nd or 3rd 4b in this game alone, although I couldn't recall any of his 4b pots going to showdown. I had been 3betting somewhat actively)
Flop: 873r
I check, V bets £400, I call
Turn: 6c (brings flush draw)
I check, V bets £875, I call
River: 6x
I check, V shoves (for around £1.5k effective), I fold.
My thoughts afterwards are that I should have called off on the river, and I'm folding too much if I don't. I do however have a lot of low-mid suited connecters in my range here, and occasionally KK, so I'm not folding the top of my range by folding QQ.
Should I be really making my mind up on the turn here?
Flatting is obviously an option pre to save these spots, which I will do sometimes, but partly due to the game being shorter I decided to 3b this time.
Loading 11 Comments...
If you call the turn and nothing changes...
Depends on 2 things and theyre reAd dependent imo. 1. Have you seen villain triple barrel air or is he capable? 2. Does he do this with tt or jj ever. If answer is yes to either of those and you called turn i think youre calling river. Sometimes they just have it tho.
Feels like a call to me getting better than 3/1
The more I think about it, the more I think it's a call. I can take TT/JJ out of his range pretty comfortably, and be confident he never has worse for value, but I do think that he's capable of having some bluffs in this spot (although I wouldn't expect him to be barreling turn with no equity). Even if he has all AA/KK combos + some random 6's for value, and then half those combos as bluffs, it is a clear call.
But as a general, is it a mistake to be calling turn to fold this river against a capable reg?
So no, don't fold here, unless you do so to exploit his lack of a bluffing range.
Knowing how the better live pros play at this level (in my experience), it would be even less of a fold because they are usually too bluff heavy.
I'd much much prefer a flat pre with relative positions this deep. If another player had called, I'd squeeze, no problem, but when closing the action heads up in the BB, 3b is kinda faced up, isn't it? (you can just fold or flat last to act, no reason to have a wide 3betting range). Are you really 3betting often suited connectors BB vs UTG+1 this deep? Seems to me you'll have very little FE pre, and will get played back a lot post this deep.
And for this reason also, vilain's 4b range looks value heavy to me.
As played, meh, yes we can call river not to be exploited. But it feels to me he has it too much. Is vilain the kind to blast away 300bb in marginal spots? This is quite a crucial read to have. Timing tells (any tells) should also be a big part in your decision imo.
V has been a winning reg in these games and bigger ones for many years as far as I'm aware. I have seen him willing to commit stacks in marginal spots before (although nothing too similar to this one). I'm sure he's not flawless in giving away subtle timing/ physical tells but he's definitely at a point where I can't pick anything up from him. What would a river timing tell be in this spot anyway? A quick shove = strength, and vica versa?
Villain may flat AA, KK pre given it's HU and he's in position. I think he's more likely 4betting Ako, KQo, suited connectors, etc. Agree w all above in that it's super read dependent and how often is villain going to be bluffing this spot. But we have >50% equity vs his range including all 4bet suited connectors. It's live poker, you don't often see players jamming river w air but you know this villain better than we do.
@Oliver Price: ok if vilain is a winning, he can def have more bluffs in his range than others at every step of the hand, so we could bluffcatch.
As for tells it's hard to say in a vacuum, you have to get reads / instincts beforehand. Timing of his 4b pre can be significant. Betting motion in such an inflated pot can be important, unless vilain is super aware of his movements. As for river timing, actually a quick shove clould be weakness: some decent players just decide rather early in the hand whenever they want to barrel, so they have a quick decision.
In the end, in such a massive pot, I believe your gut has a word to say. This is the translation, from the inside, of all the subtle information that flow through body langage, the nervosity around the table, etc. It's def tough to follow (I'm working a lot on that), but it is usually rather precise.
But that said it's generally a good disciplined fold so I give you props for reaching what I believe is USUALLY the correct conclusion.
You said it yourself. If you fold this hand you are folding too much in these spots. You are in the top of your range.
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