1/4 delay cbets as a concept
Posted by DanDanDanDan
Posted by
DanDanDanDan
posted in
Mid Stakes
1/4 delay cbets as a concept
SB: $2274.21
BB: $500
UTG: $689.70
HJ: $558.65
CO: $674.84 (Hero)
UTG raises to $15, HJ folds, Hero calls $15, BN folds, SB folds, BB folds
The hand is 500nl Zoom. My default here with weak showdown value is, as is standard, to check down.
This turn bet felt right though, and I wonder if it could be pretty decent in a lot of spots. Basically, I feel the delayed river stab from my opponent in this spot is becoming more prevalent, but not so prevalent such that AQ or other weak showdown is just a snap call on the river when our opponent can easily value bet almost any pair on a lot of rivers, while also bluffing the bottom of his range such that we don't feel great folding.
If we do check through and call a river bet, we're losing more VS delayed value betting hands than had we bet this size on the turn (assuming villain simply CCs and checks the river).
Meanwhile, the bet stops villain bluffing us on the river, which is a good thing assuming the river bet is somewhat unexploitable.
Villain could probably exploit this bet, but in the absence of information, won't be able to.
Er, so yeah that's it. I just wondered if I'm missing anything super obvious, something which might explain why it's not something you see very often.
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I think it's kind of hard to justify re-opening up the betting in position for such little money, but I'm curiously to hear what others think.
As most of these moves, it´s a "nice" temporary exploit, but I´d suspect
it will be pretty difficult to implement as part of a solid gameplan.
As soon as your opponent gets a grip on what you´re doing (which is not
that hard, he can simply call with weak made hands and will see what
you´ve done), you´re likely done with that.
yes, If you dont 3bet preflop, i think it's good line to bet the turn.
Definitely something exploitable, as BigFiszh pointed out. Yet, very useful in my opinion. It just allows to take down the pot very cheaply everytime our opponent is giving up + protecting our equity in those spots.
I'm pretty sure it saves us some money because weaker players will simply X/C the turn with their marginal hands, so it allows us to control the betting / size of the pot.
Sure, we might have to adjust once players understand what we're doing, but that's ok, because we can own them for a while by inducing with this kind of tiny sizing (for instance... my point is simply that this tiny sizing 'invites' adjustment among our opponents, and if we're good enough we can anticipate what their adjustment will be, therefore over-adjusting).
I wonder how exploitable, or likely to be exploited, it actually is though? For example, the standard play to check back weak showdown on flop and turn here already leaves our river range very exploitable if villain were to 2x river a lot. How often does this happen? Basically never, so we don't worry about it.
If someone wants to exploit this bet, perhaps by CRing wide, they are going to have to tailor their range on flop (by not cbetting value) and turn (by not leading value), or they themselves will be left exploitable.
Basically, I feel like flop check and turn check ranges in villain's shoes are currently tailored to seeing a normal sized bet. A bet this size leaves them having to defend much more of their range, which means going back several streets in order to combat it. Which makes their life unhappy.
Absolutely.
I think it's good when we know villain is overfolding against this size, if he has overdefending tendencies in this line im sure we want to exploit atleast somewhat bigger, and then structure our ranges accordingly. I think if we don't know we don't know, and i'd rather check down get more information to know more. Knowing stuff is nice, gambling not so much. All we know at this point is that we are playing 500NL Zoom, and some player with a bigger than full stack, checked twice as the PFR on this texture, which in terms of all there is to know about this spot is super very little.
Obviously if we want to have a discussion about whether this is good to implement more regularly, which probably what you are doing. Then we should first figure out what a standard range looks like from our villain, and then what our range looks like. Find hands that normally check who benefit more from betting small, or find hands that normally bet bigger that benefit more from betting smaller, and start from there.
but if you small-bet too many of your potential x/x/c hands ott , villain exploits you by expanding value OTR + bluffing exploitatively
he should also expand value in his turn XR line if you're reopening the betting with a ton of AQ type stuff
i don't think it's a very sustainable strategy to small bet aggressively in that line, but i do think it will play well vs passive villains. you'll get XR'd less often ott, and your river bluffcatching EV is lower to begin with vs those guys, so theres less of a point in planning to call brick rivers with AQ when you can effectively charge him ott
but if you small-bet too many of your potential x/x/c hands ott ,
villain exploits you by expanding value OTR + bluffing exploitatively
Do we care if villain can exploit us on the river in those spots though? If we're betting a decent amount on the flop and betting some % of the time on turns after we check back then how often is villain really going to get into a situation where they can use these exploits? Also, it's not like the hands that we take to the river improve 0% of the time after we've checked twice.
if he plays an MES otr vs a very aggro 1/4 turn c-bet strat, it would probably incentivize us to move some of the 1/4 turn bets to checks , where their EV is now higher to bluffcatch rivers. but i'm just guessing at where the thresholds are. my guess is you could balance a 1/4 bet sometimes ott and it would be effective .. just seems wrong to do it all the time.
I think I could write a bunch of mumbo jumbo about river ranges and blocker bets, but the simple fact is that if you continually open up betting with a range consisting of weak made hands, you are going to either get bluffed off your hand often or lose way to much to a c/r, pot line, when our opponent slowplays. I assume this is roughly the top of your range in this spot.
This actually seems like a decent board to do it on...doesn't it?
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