Turn decision mid stages of party $215 40k

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Turn decision mid stages of party $215 40k

None: HERRPP DERRPPP: 21334
None: HungarysHero: 7585
None: senterpied: 23715
None: Dustyourfish: 7540
None: MyMojoSoDope: 6832
None: Jack_Nap1er: 22531
None: Sure__shot: 13245
None: WishIcldFly: 11264
None: LMS_gotti: 18297
None: mjw_006: 7281
Preflop (0) (10 Players)
senterpied was dealt Q Q
LMS_gotti raises 400, mjw_006 folds, HERRPP DERRPPP folds, HungarysHero folds, senterpied calls 400, Dustyourfish folds, MyMojoSoDope folds, Jack_Nap1er folds, Sure__shot folds, WishIcldFly calls 200
Flop (1000) 6 Q 8 (3 Players)
WishIcldFly checks, LMS_gotti bets 750, senterpied calls 750, WishIcldFly calls 750
Turn (3250) K (3 Players)
WishIcldFly bets 1875, LMS_gotti calls 1875, senterpied raises 4200 to 6075, WishIcldFly folds, LMS_gotti bets 15252, senterpied calls 12927
River (39379) T (2 Players)
Final Pot
senterpied has Q Q LMS_gotti has K K LMS_gotti wins 39879
Kinda unsure what my best line is here. Assumed LMS_gotti was decent and WishIcldFly wasn't.. So felt it was pretty likely Wish has a draw that he will call the turn with or air which I probably wouldn't stack on the river. But raising turn I think will only stack Gotti if he has 66/88/qk/combo draws and possibly aa and ak but i think he can fold these some %. Just wondered what peoples general vibe is in this spot.

19 Comments

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Dale Chadwick 12 years, 3 months ago
You did nothing wrong at all if the k dosent come on turn you get another decent bet called then maybe small value on river maybe. Just a cooler that k hit either way you look at it ore flop you could of got it in on river you could of got it in and you would of still got coolerd sometimes there isn't really much you can do. Not sure what wishicudfly had maybe js or ak.
Aggro Squid 12 years, 3 months ago
Thoughts for flatting pre? I think it's close to 3betting but then if he is decently competent I guess we can give him credit for a pretty tight value orientated range as he is UTG but since we are so deep I like 3 betting pre. Slowplaying is fine but if we can get the initiative in this pot by raising (obviously for value) then we can get more money in the pot which is a decent spot with QQ. Also with position if he 4bets we can flat no problem.

As played though, it is unfortunate is AK AQ and KQ make up a decent portion of his range here. We would expect him take this line with any of these hands. I feel that wish can have straight and flush draws as well as some weaker Qxs. He puts in a raise a decent amount of the time with any two pair hands on the flop so we ca n narrow his range to 1pair type hands or draws.

This means that raising the turn is fine as we are expecting LMS to hold a strong value hand a decent amount of the time and will be willing to stack off, since we have Wish on a weakish drawy holding we are expecting a fold on the turn. Kinda sick spot but i'm an advocate of the 3bet pre.
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
what made you like flatting on the flop? as deep as you are I'd much prefer generally to get some money in now before some scare cards nuke our action, and if we do get what we want with a 2h turn or something it's going to look pretty suss when we suddenly raise now
Mark Dillon 12 years, 3 months ago
Definitely like raising flop, especially if you feel the 3rd player isn't great.

If you raise flop, and WishIcldFly cold calls it puts LMS_gotti in an uncomfortable spot, and gets more money in the pot now, allowing bigger bets on the turn.

If WishIcldFly is good aggro, and capable of check/raising light here with what he may perceive as a lot of dead money in the pot I prefer flatting.
Paul Senter 12 years, 3 months ago
I feel like I rep the sets too hard when I raise flop and flatting allows me to keep both villains ranges as wide as possible.. If we do get a 2h turn i think id flat again and prob jam over river bet on certain run outs.
Whereas if we raise flop I think we make so many hands fold that can try to barrel as a bluff or for value later in the hand. Also given my preflop flat I think this gives the ep opener more incentive to barrel as my likely hands would be smallish pairs/draws.
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
we're real deep with the nuts but vulnerable nuts, guy's already shown a lot of strength betting into two people on Q86cc, anything but mashing the chips in seems like overthinking it to me but I appreciate what you're saying. Keeping the fish involved will probably just mean letting him draw to a gutshot with monstrous implied odds, something we don't want at all
Paul Senter 12 years, 3 months ago
I don't think the c-bet necessarily = strength. After opening utg i would expect him to c-bet near 100% with the plan of barreling a fair bit.
The fish can have any 8 or 6 that he is just as likely to make 2 pair or trips with than he is to catch a gutshot or flush.. whereas if i raise he folds everything bar good fdraw/2pair+. Also don't see the opener not barreling rags a decent % on the turn and over cards near 100%.
I see your reason for raising as my action could get killed and we are deep but I just don't see enough hands either player can continue with that i don't stack anyway. Would only see AA/KK/88/66/68(/AQ) and club draws continuing to a raise. Vs every hand that can improve to a worse but stackable hand or that goes barreling off.
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
- i would expect him to c-bet near 100%
- Would only see AA/KK/88/66/68(/AQ) and club draws continuing to a raise (9Ts?)

That's pretty insulting toward LMS_gotti, he's not that exploitable. So you don't have a flop raising range at all then? Seems pretty bad given your expected tendencies of LMS_gotti. Can't really say you raise as a bluff often because that's the kind of thing people catch on to quickly, and he would not be cbetting bad hands into you and a wild fish in this spot.
BaffD 12 years, 3 months ago
James,

You noted "- Would only see AA/KK/88/66/68(/AQ) and club draws continuing to a raise (9Ts?)"

I'm curious, what else do you think LMS_gotti could reasonably continue with facing a raise from Senterpied on this board? It seems you noted it as something you didn't agree with, and i'm struggling to see much else he can continue with apart from some KQ, QJ
James Obst 12 years, 3 months ago
it's the cbet figure i disagree with, including 9Ts that's about what he'll continue with, but in a 10 handed tourney getting flatted in two spots at 100/200 this guy isn't lining up a 3barrel (or 1barrel) with AJ just for the sake of it into a perceived flatting range of 77+ AQs, AK at the loosest and a fish who will play a range that connects in some way most of the time with this flop. it's kind of irrelevant that I know this particular player personally, I wouldn't expect any assumed competent player as OP suggested to be cbetting near 100% here
Paul Senter 12 years, 3 months ago
Wasn't intending on sounding insulting, just felt that if he is c-betting a high % I get too many folds. If he isn't then I don't mind a raise (although it makes me sad to see the fish fold as I've said enough already). I hadn't played with him enough to know his tendencies but felt some ppl this deep could fire flop and turn and expect to get a good % of folds esp after opening ep.. But if you think he just check folds everything that doesn't connect then this deep a raise makes sense.
MumsPengar123 12 years, 3 months ago
Hi, got bit intresting this hand =) First it seemed std but I have to say I agree to rr flop beacuase I think we can have quite of lot semibluffs here aswell so our range will fit good. But the most thing I wondered is about the turn? Why are you rereaising this turn? After flat flop I would def go for flat on turn aswell, here we just seems to faceup.
Paul Senter 12 years, 3 months ago
I raised the turn coz I felt I could be trying to dodge half the deck if I keep both of them in the hand. I guess it does turn my hand face up to some extent, but there are still hands they can both call or stack off with. Guess this is another reason for raising flop but was just trying to let the fish be a fish.
MoeGreen 12 years, 2 months ago
You can rep all draws by raising flop and I doubt his double barrel w/ air frequency is going to be that high considering his sizing. It's also a pretty wet board and you need to protect your equity and there are tons of scare cards on the turn that are going to kill your action. I think its just a clear raise on the flop. Also, as played, I really don't like your sizing on the turn; seems way too big.
Tom M 12 years, 2 months ago
Raising flop, especially when we only flat pre, will likely make villain think have some sort of decent drawing hand rather than a set.

I completely get what you're saying re: keep the fish in the pot and let a fish be a fish. I just don't think this is the flop texture we want to do it with.

I don't think AK/AJ type hands c-bet as this flop is as close to 100% as possible to have hit one of the flatters. When he c-bets I'm raising for this reason. Plus, overcalls are never guaranteed and lots of turns cards will come that'll slow down the action far too frequently.

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