Riverdecision deep in pokerstars.fr major

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Riverdecision deep in pokerstars.fr major

BB: FlatUr3bet: 935612
UTG: Espa0: 682992
LJ: icewoman_82: 341526
HJ: ^FrenchFishh: 465415
CO: juju02100: 530411
BN: asamus: 737602
SB: rbkk442: 367141
Villain in question had been at my table for all of day 2. Just from his screen name and his betsizing/aggression before this hand I assumed he would be some kind of euroreg. I don't have any history with him before this tournament, but this is the 3rd or 4th time he has 3bet me and I have folded every time.
Preflop (21000) (7 Players)
Espa0 was dealt 9 9
Espa0 raises 14000 to 28000, icewoman_82 folds, ^FrenchFishh raises 32445 to 60445, juju02100 folds, asamus folds, rbkk442 folds, FlatUr3bet folds, Espa0 calls 32445
He has been fairly aggro all around so I think he can be light here a decent amount. I see merits to both 4betting and flatting but decided to flat mainly because I don't think we can get it in profitably.
Flop (99890) T 3 T (2 Players)
Espa0 checks, ^FrenchFishh bets 67465, Espa0 calls 67465
Turn (234820) T 3 T 7 (2 Players)
Espa0 checks, ^FrenchFishh checks
River (234820) T 3 T 7 A (2 Players)
Espa0 checks, ^FrenchFishh bets 63445, Espa0 raises 489887 to 553332, ^FrenchFishh folds
The effective stack before his riverbet is 335,755, he has to call 272,310. I feel like we have all 3 options here:
call: it is a good bluffing card for him and if we think he can 3b a decent amount light pre he gets here like this with many possible bluffcombos
fold: He has a decent amount of aces in his range and is betting really small which seems valuey
shove: I would probably play all my strong hands like this given the river, and his range is kind of capped after checking turn (doesn't mean he never has a ten or better but I think he def would bet turn most of the time with them. And his betsizing looks more like a weakish hand allthough I could be wrong about that). It is also hard for him to hero me deep in a soft major when I haven't really battled back at all against him before this.

Thoughts on all streets are appreciated, but mostly want to know what you think about the river.
Final Pot
Espa0 wins 415960

19 Comments

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Grayson Ramage 12 years, 5 months ago
Really like your c/shove on the river, it definitely looks credible. I agree that he likely has JJ-KK or Ax based on sizing, and think it will be very tough for him to call your shove. I also think that it is certainly profitable to just 4bet shove pre-flop with 99, based on the description of your opponent, since you are only 33bbs deep.
Paul Senter 12 years, 5 months ago
I like your line too as there's a fair few hands you can have for value, but given previous history i think its fine to have a wide 4b inducing range vs an ideal stack size for him to 5b jam. What do you think is the weakest you should 4b induce with here?
Phil Galfond 12 years, 5 months ago
I'm not really able to comment on tendencies of MTT players. Seems like a well played hand though, even more so if he's readless on you.

Out of curiosity, assuming you got here this way, how do you feel about shoving AQ for value?
Paul Senter 12 years, 5 months ago
I think he would def be going for more value with AK+ so I like an AQ jam. I guess our range is also polarized enough he could hero call some weaker aces occasionally.

From his point of view his bet is a great river induce. Thought about this a fair bit when I have a capped range vs a good opponent, but usually end up just going for value ha.
Sam Lang 12 years, 5 months ago
I might be way off here but seems to me if you think value shoving aq is gonna be profitable because he's hero calling a lot with a* then bluffing with 99 and no a blockers seems like it shouldn't be profitable? maybe I have the maths wrong and it is profitable to do both, but intuitively it seems like it shouldn't be at least .

I think after he bets so small people talk themselves into hero calling it off more often than not vs unknowns [although less so vs an all in then a smaller c/r, tournament life and all that, so wp on sizing there imo] simply because people do spaz a lot vs small betsizes in some spots, so unless you have history and villain respects you I don't like river play. I would probably either fold or call otr without a strong read I could get him off an ace. Really depends on villains preflop play and if I think villain is cheeky enough to fake value-bet bluff the river or not.
Espen Sørlie 12 years, 4 months ago
Alright a couple of things to comment on here. I will start with Grayson saying a jam pre is probably profitable because the described player will fold so much. I said I didn't 4b because I couldn't get it in profitable. Probably badly worded, I meant I am like always behind when we get it in, but I agree it could obviously still be profitable. 4b/inducing is also an option with described dynamic, feel like I would do it with TT and def JJ/AK.

Jamming AQ for value sounds interresting. I see what you're thinking sam about a bluff being bad if we can valueshove AQ, but I don't really agree. The point is that we have the best hand so often with AQ otr, so the few times we get herocalled by a worse ace we get additional value. That doesn't mean jamming 99 as a bluff isn't a +ev play. As I said he is going to fold so often.
Todd Sisley 12 years, 4 months ago
I feel very strongly about 4b shoving preflop. I would be fine with 4b inducing if thats how you roll. I think that 99 plays very poorly OOP on the flop vs a decent 3b range (HJ to UTG should be more QJs than 87o) and a competent opponent w/ these stack depths. I think 99 is at its strongest here PF, and I think calling delays making a judgement on his 3b range until the flop where you'll have the same dilemma, but your hand will play worse (imo). If he's any good he's going to 2- and 3-barrel you a ton here and you're going to have to guess when to get off the ride / or not. At the same time he's got plenty of overcards to hit, and they're going to flop and turn a lot. I just really try to avoid serving up +ev spots to good / aggro opponents, and I feel like you're just asking to get taken off this hand postflop (or get outdrawn). Since I am confident in it being a +ev shove pre against the described villain, I would prefer to do that and feel pretty good about it.
Todd Sisley 12 years, 4 months ago
The river shove is v interesting and v player dependent, but these are the questions I'd ask myself:

How wide is he pre? The wider he is the more hands he has to bluff and the more likely he's the type of player to bluff them. It also gives him more aces, so... What's the worst he's value-betting and what does that range do to a shove? It's important to know whether he has A5s or not and whether that's calling the shove or not. Different players will do different things depending on what they think of you and your line. If he's not folding much of his value range to our shove then we can start to consider calling, especially with the great price we're getting. How likely is he to play JJ-KK like this? This is really important because I think these are hands that will fold to your shove almost 100% of the time so him having these is great for our bluff, but some people will bet the turn with them. Would he ever slowplay trips+ on the turn? Probably not, but it's possible.

My major concern is that you're not repping very much. You're repping a ten (ats? jts? t9s?). None of those are even guaranteed (or likely?) to call pre. I guess you could have 33 or 77 although 33 seems likely to fold pre. You said you could have AQ, which is true, and he might believe that too, but it still shoves pre sometimes, and still just flats river sometimes so even that is discounted. AK shoves pre, and AJ is a pretty borderline river shove for value if it called pre. So given all this I just don't really think the villain should be making a hero fold with an ace, given he took such a weak line and has to be aware of it. It's not that I think he's inducing, so much that I think he just might play A8 like this and then realize you can definitely be bluffing and he looks weak and call. I think I would seriously consider calling his river bet, but I really only like the shove against someone strongly weighted towards JJ-KK or someone that you have a strong read will fold an ace to you (which I don't think he should).
Dale Chadwick 12 years, 3 months ago
Love the way you played this hand gotta say his range looked for all the world like he had a ace there but given you're description of the player and the way you have said he plays really think he calls wiv a ace in that spot. You ever think in this spot he's weak with maybe 8s. My personal opinion leaning more to js and I'm thinking if that ace dosent come and it's a brick he would not lay down in this spot.
BiroAK 12 years, 3 months ago
Did you have his 3bet stats? Jamming like 45 BBs pre would be profitable? I agree with the thought that 99 plays awfully OOP PF against his 3bet range, but with what you know it seems like that range is so wide and weak that its not going to hold up to much action post with his tourney life on the line, and you not playing back at him much to that point. After he checks tens on the turn hes begging you to jam any river on him, and he has to fold unless its a 2 outer like JJ full. I really like the play, maybe I'm being more results oriented than most, but he often folded a hand that would have doubled him if you jammed pre. I'm hardly an expert, and would love feedback/critiques.
Matt Wakeman 12 years, 3 months ago
Agree with Grayson's assessment. Looks WP, though I may have gone for the Gii pre vs described villain since even a lot of his bluffrange will have good eq and be in pos vs you post.
Matthew Hunt 12 years, 3 months ago
It feels like we can go to ~130k pre and call it off pretty comfortably, although we should be wary of the fact that villains on .fr just looooove to flat 4bets in really weird spots. I really like our postflop line though.
tightlines 12 years, 3 months ago
does anyone like leading really small to induce here? I liked the post flop thought process, I would agree w ramage if we were 33 bb deep but i think we are considerably deeper than that although I could easily be missing something... I would be 4b getting in before jamming this deep imo
Cary Pall 12 years, 3 months ago
On the river, based on your description of villain, I think he has a decent ace that isn't folding or air. I'd probably just c/c river, esp. with his sizing. Bluff catch and lose the minimum when he shows up with an ace. I just think this type of player will look at his sizing and decide to hero call a ton of the time since it's such a good spot for you to bluff, you're basically only repping a 10, and he knows you could be getting frustrated with him.

I don't think he'd have JJ-AA in his range very often. A player like this who bets large on a 10 3 10 flop is almost always going to bet the 7h turn with these hands. He also probably just checks back the river with JJ-KK. So, that gives me less incentive to check-shove the river since I doubt these hands are in his range much. Also, with this type of player I think 10x+ will value bet larger on the river, so his bet seems super weak to me. I also tend to think he'd bet slightly more with Ax.

His wide 3 betting pre, his flop sizing and turn check just really make me think he's on total air or picked up some equity on the turn and is now making a cheap stab on the river. I could only check-shove river if I really, really thought he would be capable of laying down Ax and I'm not sure this type can.
Ari B 12 years, 3 months ago
I just don't see the value in jamming. I agree with Todd for the most part. I don't see JJ-KK playing the turn or river this way, and in my mind those are the only hands that a check/jam on the river would make sense against (now thinking about it, he may play smaller pairs like this, with the small bet to try and get you off the hand if you do have 99, JJ-KK, but even so, Id still like just a call). If he has AJ+ maybe even any A he makes the jam call based on his style. I guess my question is what hands are you making him fold with a jam, that he'd bet with on the river that you wouldn't already have beat with your 99's, making a call the better play?
Phil_McGroin 12 years, 3 months ago
In this hand you are 33bbs effective which is a fine stack size to 4b jam a hand such as 99 versus the described opponent. I'm not sure if you are going to be able to induce worse at this depth given the gameflow of you folding to the previous 3bets. Further, I'm not sure 99 is a hand that you want to be inducing with.

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